Post by Die Fledermaus on Jun 22, 2007 22:40:24 GMT -4
The question of the best hamster food is touched on in this from another board. The issue NOT addressed her is whether or not those blocks at 22% protein is too much protein for non-pregnant female hamsters. 
>>
As I said previously. I don't do the actual mixing myself, but have
the feed store do it for me. I select bags of foods that they
already have packaged and they mix it all together for me. Then I
get it in two or three 50 lb bags. I end up with so much because so
of the foods I'm mixing in are in 20-25 lb bags. I know there are
many feed stores in my area that don't actually mix their own blends
so you may need to search to find one. Sometimes they charge me $5
to mix it, sometimes they don't. It just depends on who rings up my
total.
> Please site some sources for the claim that hamsters need that much
> protein (22%). That seems very high. The maker of the lab block
> doesn't count as a citation. Too much protein can cause
> renal failure.
Goodness, I don't have sources, just the advantage of conversing with
the top breeders in the US. I know the experiences that they have
had with different foods and the products that they choose to feed
and use. I have made my own experiences as well.
For almost a year when I was new to the hamster fancy, I had been
feeding a rodent block that my local feed store sells. This block
was said to be able to be fed to many species, including white-tailed
deer! I wasn't "in love" with the block so took the steps to locate
the PMI rodent block, which is what the top breeders use. I did find
it being sold at a somewhat local feed store. The store actually had
it in stock because labratories truly do use the product and they
supplied the labs of a few local universities (that feed store has
since moved further from me so I now have a feed store that is much
closer special order it). I was curious to know if I would see any
noticable differences, especially in the litters. I did a trial on
six litters I had at the time. I was lucky enough to have two
sisters of comparable size that I had bred to the same male. From
the other four I selected comparable pairs and then feed three of the
litters with solely the RMH 3000 and the other three solely the block
food I had been feeding (usually I'll feed heavily on the seed mix to
the litters). The results were impressive. The pups receiving the
RMH 3000 were easily much larger in size. I always weigh my pups at
weaning and then every few days or so after that to help me determine
who I want to hold back to breed. For the pups receiving the "old"
rodent block, there was no difference in size from previous litters
that had been receiving the seed mix in addition to the block. Of
course there were some differences between the litters due to
genetics and the size of the parents, but that is why I did my best
to pick comparable sized pairs for comparision.
It was several years ago that I did this and I don't know if I still
have the pieces of paper I scratched my observations on. I can't
even remember the average difference of the litters in grams but do
remember it was significant enough to be able to contribute it to the
food. I wasn't doing it for any specific study, just my own
curiosity. I'd seen so many debates about diet and just didn't
believe that diet could have as big an impact as I ended up
witnessing. What I could have done if I wanted to really study it
was then repeat all the same breedings and switch which litters
received the "old" rodent blocks and the ones that received the RMH
3000. The results that I got from my little experiment were enough
for me though, and I never purchased the "old" rodent block again! I
have never seen any evidence of renal failure, nor any other problem,
in the hamsters. I do occassionally have a female with amyloidsis,
but I've not observed this to be a tendency in the lines or caused by
diet as it only occurs occassionaly- one or two a year for the
hundreds that I've had. I've observed normal lifespans of 22-28
months.
There were a handful breeders that all tried the RMH 2000 blend for
the same year (one would supply all the others). They did notice an
overall difference in their litters over that time frame. Nothing
very specific, just something as a breeder you would have a feel
for. The more concerning difference of the diet was the incident of
bloat in females (probably amyloidsis but that's only a guess). The
numbers of females that had a problem had increased to around a dozen
for the year for one breeder. Again, a dozen is not that many but it
is a problem that is not usually seen and to have the numbers jump
that much in one year makes the food suspect. The breeders all went
back to RMH 3000 and have not seen the higher incidences of bloat
since then. Again, there was no proof it was caused by the RMH 2000,
just suspect.
The other "trial" I did was with the litters and the seed mixes. Up
until a year ago, I had been supplimenting the hamsters, and
especially the litters, with Sun Seed Vita Hamster seed mix that I
could buy at the feed store in 25 lb. bags and sometimes a seed blend
created by a different feed store. I was never very happy with
either of them as I felt they could be fed something better. I was
at the feed store one day talking with the owner and he said that
they could mix up a blend for me, I just needed to tell them what to
put in and how much. My initial mix was just myself shopping around
their store and selecting different bags of seeds and grains. I
didn't notice much difference when feeding this blend but it was only
50lbs of mix and that goes fast when fed to well over 100 hamsters (I
never keep an exact count- too scary for my husband). The second mix
I had made up, I choose to blend Squirrel Chow into it. I think the
Squirrel Chow makes the biggest contribution with all the different
nuts. I also include hulled peanuts, oatmeal, alfalfa pellets,
striped sunflower seed, black oiler sunflower seed, parrot seed blend
and some things that look good. My second blend was well over 100
lbs. It lasted longer and I did notice a difference in the size of
the pups in the litters receiving it. It was funny in that it
reminded me of years prior when I saw the difference between the
rodent blocks. I don't know the percentages of the protein or fat in
the seed mixes I've made but just by looking at it, I know it's
higher in protein and fat than any of the usually hamster seed mixes
sold and in the mixes I had been feeding. There is only a small
amount of the normal fillers- white millet, corn and alfalfa
pellets. It has a much "richer" appearance to it and I feel good to
be feeding it to them, something that I never was previously.
Perhaps it is just because it was my own combination and I'm pleased
with it. Really though, I think it was more just intuition I've
gained over the years.
The foods that I feed are obviously not going to work for anyone with
just a single pet hamster just because there's just no need to
purchase a 50 lb bag of RMH 3000 for one hamster. Nor would a owner
have 100 lbs. of seed mix made up for them. If several owners got
together though, it is something they could divide between them. If
there were a larger club for hamsters like the AGS is for gerbils,
then perhaps that could help to distribute the food in smaller
portions.
I also suppliment with fresh veggies and fruit. There was a point,
before I was a mother, where I would feed three different veggies and
one different fruit to all the hamsters and birds every day. It is
not nearly as varied or frequent now but I do feel that the fresh
food helps to keep them happy and diet varied.
-Janice <<
MORE:
Some info on hamster nutrition:
http://books. nap.edu/openbook.php?record_ id=4758&page=125
There's also a section on gerbil nutrition.
>>
As I said previously. I don't do the actual mixing myself, but have
the feed store do it for me. I select bags of foods that they
already have packaged and they mix it all together for me. Then I
get it in two or three 50 lb bags. I end up with so much because so
of the foods I'm mixing in are in 20-25 lb bags. I know there are
many feed stores in my area that don't actually mix their own blends
so you may need to search to find one. Sometimes they charge me $5
to mix it, sometimes they don't. It just depends on who rings up my
total.
> Please site some sources for the claim that hamsters need that much
> protein (22%). That seems very high. The maker of the lab block
> doesn't count as a citation. Too much protein can cause
> renal failure.
Goodness, I don't have sources, just the advantage of conversing with
the top breeders in the US. I know the experiences that they have
had with different foods and the products that they choose to feed
and use. I have made my own experiences as well.
For almost a year when I was new to the hamster fancy, I had been
feeding a rodent block that my local feed store sells. This block
was said to be able to be fed to many species, including white-tailed
deer! I wasn't "in love" with the block so took the steps to locate
the PMI rodent block, which is what the top breeders use. I did find
it being sold at a somewhat local feed store. The store actually had
it in stock because labratories truly do use the product and they
supplied the labs of a few local universities (that feed store has
since moved further from me so I now have a feed store that is much
closer special order it). I was curious to know if I would see any
noticable differences, especially in the litters. I did a trial on
six litters I had at the time. I was lucky enough to have two
sisters of comparable size that I had bred to the same male. From
the other four I selected comparable pairs and then feed three of the
litters with solely the RMH 3000 and the other three solely the block
food I had been feeding (usually I'll feed heavily on the seed mix to
the litters). The results were impressive. The pups receiving the
RMH 3000 were easily much larger in size. I always weigh my pups at
weaning and then every few days or so after that to help me determine
who I want to hold back to breed. For the pups receiving the "old"
rodent block, there was no difference in size from previous litters
that had been receiving the seed mix in addition to the block. Of
course there were some differences between the litters due to
genetics and the size of the parents, but that is why I did my best
to pick comparable sized pairs for comparision.
It was several years ago that I did this and I don't know if I still
have the pieces of paper I scratched my observations on. I can't
even remember the average difference of the litters in grams but do
remember it was significant enough to be able to contribute it to the
food. I wasn't doing it for any specific study, just my own
curiosity. I'd seen so many debates about diet and just didn't
believe that diet could have as big an impact as I ended up
witnessing. What I could have done if I wanted to really study it
was then repeat all the same breedings and switch which litters
received the "old" rodent blocks and the ones that received the RMH
3000. The results that I got from my little experiment were enough
for me though, and I never purchased the "old" rodent block again! I
have never seen any evidence of renal failure, nor any other problem,
in the hamsters. I do occassionally have a female with amyloidsis,
but I've not observed this to be a tendency in the lines or caused by
diet as it only occurs occassionaly- one or two a year for the
hundreds that I've had. I've observed normal lifespans of 22-28
months.
There were a handful breeders that all tried the RMH 2000 blend for
the same year (one would supply all the others). They did notice an
overall difference in their litters over that time frame. Nothing
very specific, just something as a breeder you would have a feel
for. The more concerning difference of the diet was the incident of
bloat in females (probably amyloidsis but that's only a guess). The
numbers of females that had a problem had increased to around a dozen
for the year for one breeder. Again, a dozen is not that many but it
is a problem that is not usually seen and to have the numbers jump
that much in one year makes the food suspect. The breeders all went
back to RMH 3000 and have not seen the higher incidences of bloat
since then. Again, there was no proof it was caused by the RMH 2000,
just suspect.
The other "trial" I did was with the litters and the seed mixes. Up
until a year ago, I had been supplimenting the hamsters, and
especially the litters, with Sun Seed Vita Hamster seed mix that I
could buy at the feed store in 25 lb. bags and sometimes a seed blend
created by a different feed store. I was never very happy with
either of them as I felt they could be fed something better. I was
at the feed store one day talking with the owner and he said that
they could mix up a blend for me, I just needed to tell them what to
put in and how much. My initial mix was just myself shopping around
their store and selecting different bags of seeds and grains. I
didn't notice much difference when feeding this blend but it was only
50lbs of mix and that goes fast when fed to well over 100 hamsters (I
never keep an exact count- too scary for my husband). The second mix
I had made up, I choose to blend Squirrel Chow into it. I think the
Squirrel Chow makes the biggest contribution with all the different
nuts. I also include hulled peanuts, oatmeal, alfalfa pellets,
striped sunflower seed, black oiler sunflower seed, parrot seed blend
and some things that look good. My second blend was well over 100
lbs. It lasted longer and I did notice a difference in the size of
the pups in the litters receiving it. It was funny in that it
reminded me of years prior when I saw the difference between the
rodent blocks. I don't know the percentages of the protein or fat in
the seed mixes I've made but just by looking at it, I know it's
higher in protein and fat than any of the usually hamster seed mixes
sold and in the mixes I had been feeding. There is only a small
amount of the normal fillers- white millet, corn and alfalfa
pellets. It has a much "richer" appearance to it and I feel good to
be feeding it to them, something that I never was previously.
Perhaps it is just because it was my own combination and I'm pleased
with it. Really though, I think it was more just intuition I've
gained over the years.
The foods that I feed are obviously not going to work for anyone with
just a single pet hamster just because there's just no need to
purchase a 50 lb bag of RMH 3000 for one hamster. Nor would a owner
have 100 lbs. of seed mix made up for them. If several owners got
together though, it is something they could divide between them. If
there were a larger club for hamsters like the AGS is for gerbils,
then perhaps that could help to distribute the food in smaller
portions.
I also suppliment with fresh veggies and fruit. There was a point,
before I was a mother, where I would feed three different veggies and
one different fruit to all the hamsters and birds every day. It is
not nearly as varied or frequent now but I do feel that the fresh
food helps to keep them happy and diet varied.
-Janice <<
MORE:
Some info on hamster nutrition:
http://books. nap.edu/openbook.php?record_ id=4758&page=125
There's also a section on gerbil nutrition.
