tnh
Rodent Retreat Newbie
Posts: 19
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Post by tnh on Jan 9, 2009 9:31:32 GMT -4
Thank you. It surprised me. I didn't know I had all that to say.
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Post by Hamsters82 on Jan 10, 2009 17:00:23 GMT -4
Very nice, tnh and so true. But I do have to point out one thing that you said. You said this:
How can there be evil in a world created by a good God? We can't know.
Actually we do know; it's because God gave us the free will/choice to do as we please. And now that we have choice, some people can choose not to believe in Him. And that is why there is evil in this world.
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Post by pinky on Jan 11, 2009 11:48:39 GMT -4
So thoughtful, tnh. Thank you for contributing this. Having a terminally ill hamster right now, I find it reassuring.
Katie, I struggle with your claim that a failure to believe is the cause of evil. Catholics go to confession because they have done evil things; nevertheless, they believe. My sister and her husband are atheists; however, they are not at all evil.
I have always struggled with the idea that a faith is supreme and that nonfollowers are damned. That just can't be.
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Post by Hamsters82 on Jan 11, 2009 13:08:09 GMT -4
In a sense I don't mean everyone who believes in God is evil, that's so not true. As you just pointed out your sister and her husband aren't. My Mom's cousin isn't bad and he's an atheist. I meant in a sense where those types of people aren't living in God's ways. God says not to do this and that, yet sometimes we do them (yes even people who do believe). God teaches love, respect, faith, etc and if we don't follow them the world could end upside down. I don't know how to fully explain it; I'll ask my mother on the subject later as she would much better explain it than I would. Sorry.
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Post by Die Fledermaus on Jan 11, 2009 23:39:27 GMT -4
Freedom of will (which results in meaningful Love) was a God-given freedom perverted by he who originated sin - Lucifer before his fall was the highest of angels. "Thou wast perfect in thy ways. . . until iniquity was found in thee". Ezekiel 28:12=15. Little by little, Lucifer came to indulge in a desire for self-exaltation. Lucifer sought to win the homage of God's creatures to himself. Warnings to him given in love only in creased his jealously and prideful resistance.
Lucifer went to sow the spirit of discontent among the other angels He claimed seeking grater self-exaltation was only seeking liberty and thus a higher state of existence.
Lucifer's pride drove him on and he sought the deception of the other angels and he did in due course become Satan and was cast from Heaven.
"Now war arose in heaven, Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, but they were defeated and there was no longer any place for them in heaven. And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the Devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world - he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him." Revelations.
Even the Quran mentions it: "Satan's individual rebellion to his proud insistence that he was better than Mankind, being forged from fire, rather than clay."
But about Evil here. . .
In Judaism and Christianity, evil is the result of forsaking God. Lucifer (then as Satan) and his fallen angels are ever active tempting and deceiving fomenting evil . People, and angels beforehand, all had free will as Love that is forced is meaningless. Does evil have to be learned or are the temptations of Satan and his sufficient? In other words, are some people intrinsically evil? They make their choice. God does not micromanage a world of his less mindless automatons.
In the Lucifer allusion, God doesn’t like evil but he lets it exist so we can learn from it and to grow deeper in our walk with God. Darkness doesn’t really exist it’s just the absence of light. So evil doesn’t really exist it’s just the absence of God’s love. So that is why evil exists so that God can show us his true self and that cares about each and every person. Plus most of the evil and suffering has been bad choices by men and temptation by the Satan.
Or maybe you think humanity is inherently rotten. I can cite myriad examples of barbarism from recent history, stuff that most folks have no idea of. I could post a photo of an in progress torture-murder in Texas from less than century ago cheered on by many thousands that would sicken you. But if one think is sure throughout a study of history it's that century by century the barbarism and general evil has diminished. Is that positive? You judge. And make no mistake in assuming any organized religion is the way to God; sometimes it is not and sometimes it too is perverted throughout History as fallible humans capable of temptation of flawed created and continued such organizations.
And those are my two cents. Add your own.
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lyn
Rodent Retreat Lover
Just taking life one day at a time.
Posts: 307
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Post by lyn on Oct 6, 2010 9:31:02 GMT -4
Oh boy Tom , you have opened up a can of wiggly ones with this Question. I am here to give you my opinion like you asked and will do my best not to stray from the topic. This may be long, i don't know, please bear with me. My belief is that if you are an innocent you get a free pass. Innocent meaning animals and infants. Any living, breating creatures I believe were given the gift of a soul. We all have heard the story of why Jesus died on the cross, but yet humans take that for granted on a continuous basis,and I know whether a believer or not EVERYONE has heard it. Animals don't do that! They don't have sin. If they are a" bad animal" the owner need to take into account the behavior that they taught that animal. They don't mess each other over for drugs and money. They don't carry weapons. I deeply believe that when we do get to heaven our animals will be waiting for us. I am doing more staring at the screen that I am typing because my brain is on overload, so I will stop now. Good topic, will talk more on it later if it's alright with you. Free pass Tom, free pass. The character Ripley from the movie Alien 2 said it best when refering to the aliens as animals compared to the actions of humans. " At least they (aliens) are not f*****g each other over for a percentage!" This is only MY personal belief, not trying to sway anyones belief.
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Post by Die Fledermaus on Oct 6, 2010 14:11:27 GMT -4
There was "Alien" and "Aliens". In the latter movie the funniest line was when someone said "they cut the power". "WHADDYA MEAN CUT THE POWER?? THEY'RE A BUNCH OF FREAKING ANIMALS!!". >>I deeply believe that when we do get to heaven our animals will be waiting for us.<< If not, it isn't heaven. And I don't want to go.
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lyn
Rodent Retreat Lover
Just taking life one day at a time.
Posts: 307
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Post by lyn on Oct 6, 2010 15:54:40 GMT -4
I second that. Heaven is supposed to be the most beautiful, peaceful place ever, and I can't imagine our beloved babies not being there. We won't know til or if we get there. But I can still see you sitting on a cloud surrounded by all of your babies, crying tears of joy. The Alien series is my favorite ( part 1,2 &3 ) after that, I think the storyline was lacking.
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Post by Andrea on Oct 6, 2010 18:36:17 GMT -4
When i was 5 my childhood friend told me heaven had anything you ever wanted..... I pictured a long table with white linens covered in fruit roll-ups.
I wasn't allowed Fruit Roll-Ups as a kid... lol Whatever the afterlife is, I'm sure it's much better then what we have here. (So yes I do believe animals go to heaven)
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Post by Die Fledermaus on Oct 7, 2010 12:42:13 GMT -4
I mentioned in this thread, and elsewhere in RR, about Mary and her dogs, Charile and Jerry.
At her mass the priest had no issue with her dogs in heaven with her. She was buried with Jerry's ashes. Charlie was living in Suffolk county, NY, last I heard, and was happy. Poor guy had it tough being bounced around for awhile--he was with Mary only 18 months.
"Sad But Wonderful Story" is the title of the thread about Mary. Easy to find.
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lyn
Rodent Retreat Lover
Just taking life one day at a time.
Posts: 307
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Post by lyn on Oct 7, 2010 15:33:52 GMT -4
It's so weird you brought Mary and Charlie up in conversation today. I was just re-reading those exact threads this morning. Mary and Jerry are waiting patiently for Charlie to join them someday. Until then he has a great pair of guardian angels.
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Post by Die Fledermaus on Oct 7, 2010 22:43:58 GMT -4
I forget if you saw the newspaper photo of Charley being petted by the cops as he never left her.
He went to Animal Care and Control for a day until we got him back. As soon as I heard of her death I was looking for him.
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