Some Danish History, Part II

[Die Fledermaus]

Continuing from the other long thread. . .

>> Here is a Link to a full list of the navy at the time (and other times). A very thorough Danish naval web-page, also in English:
www.navalhistory.dk/English/Naval_Lists/Periods/1864.htm
As you can see, it was rather anaemic. Only four ships-of-the-line (by my cursory count) and a handful of frigates. But better than most German states. <<

Very interesting. And very complete! Bookmarked.

Quickly, as I have no time right now to search, when was the first iron/steel warship for the Danes?

>> Here's the official web-page (also an English version), but this is more about museum-info than historic details:
www.fregatten-jylland.dk/default.aspx?pageID=0〈=en <<

Excellent.

>> Christmas Lunch at the Frigate 2008

Enjoy your Christmas Lunch in a uniqe environment.

Price per person: 499 DKK (incl. 4 drinks, entertainment and music)
For booking and further information, contact us at [phone] or [e-mail], att. Jan Ravn. <<

Cool!

>> Here's a site that may be of interest:
www.chakoten.dk/daninfuni200aar_e.html <<

Great, again! I see red dominated until 1842.

Thanks for the super links.

>> Too bad battleships went obsolete. There was just something about the <<

Very expensive to operate, though.

Send me your e-mail again, please, and I will send you some photos
of the Iowa..

Here is a link I forget if I sent you. All photos taken by me at the NYPL's Slavonic section.
good-times.webshots.com/album/562048824BVDWME

This is an interesting collection of collector cards on the Civil War from the 1960's.
good-times.webshots.com/album/562098559ROTqZU

>> The German Confederation (Deutsches Bund - I think German League is a better translation) en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Confederation A very loose organisation. Had to be to have both Prussia and Austria in it. A stronger organisation would mean one leader, and neither would yield. No accident that the German Empire only became a reality after the Prussian victory over Austria in 1866. <<

Any talk of Anschluss back then? I always wondered.

>> BTW. Did you know that the Victory Column (Siegessäule) in Berlin is decorated with three rows of gilded cannon-barrels? <<

Did not know that. You know I assume the big British lion at Waterloo, and every Victoria Cross, is made from French bronze cannon barrels captured 6/18/15?

>> I heard the French took their guns back at some point (after one of the world wars I suspect), but later returned them as a sign of good will and friendship. <<

Leave it to the French.

OK, now to the other PM. . . I locked the old threads.

[Rasmus]

Hi again tom

>>Quickly, as I have no time right now to search, when was the first iron/steel warship for the Danes?<<

I think that was the Rolf Krake that I mentioned earlier. It was brand new in 1964 and pretty cutting-edge - an ironclad monitor with rotating turrets.www.navalhistory.dk/English/TheShips/R/RolfKrake(1863).htm

>>Great, again! I see red dominated until 1842.<<

Yes. Danish soldiers were redcoats too. I think Britain was the great role model, despite 1807.

>>Very expensive to operate, though.<<

And that was the trouble, wasn't it? They became so expensive, that no-one dared use them as they were intended to, for fear of loosing such a huge investment. Prestige-objects to be sure, but still cool.

>>Send me your e-mail again, please, and I will send you some photos of the Iowa..<<

I'll send you a PM on BH. Feels a little more secure.

>>Any talk of Anschluss back then? I always wondered.<<

There was a lot of discussion between what was called the Grossdeutsche Lösung (Greater German Solution) and the Kleindeutsche Lösung (Lesser German Solution)en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kleindeutsche_L%C3%B6sung, the greater being a Germany that incorporated both Prussia and Austria under the Prussian Hohenzollerns and the lesser being a Germany without Austria. The Greater German Solution, or Anschluss if you will, was in my opinion just a pipe-dream as long as the Austrian Empire (or to an even greater extent the Austro-Hungarian Empire) was a going concern. No way on God's green Earth were the Habsburgs going to submit themselves to the rule of the Hohenzollerns, and no way did the other German states want a bunch of Hungarians in their national state. Only with the fall of the dynasty, the dismemberment of the Empire in 1918-19 and the creation of a more ethnically homogenous German state, Austria, did Anschluss become an attractive idea to some Austrians and Germans, and then, of course the Allies would hear none of it. I don't think Anschluss was possible at any other time before or since in history than 1938 (give or take a few years).

>>Did not know that. You know I assume the big British lion at Waterloo, and every Victoria Cross, is made from French bronze cannon barrels captured 6/18/15?<<

Sad to say, I didn't know that. So there's a theoretical limit to how many Victoria Crosses can be rewarded?

>>Leave it to the French.<<

The taking of the guns or the giving them back?

That's it for now. I'll get back to you on the other post later. A little pressed for time right now.

Bye

Rasmus

[Die Fledermaus]

Hi again Rasmus,

>> I think that was the Rolf Krake that I mentioned earlier. It was brand new in 1964 and pretty cutting-edge - an ironclad monitor with rotating turrets.www.navalhistory.dk/English/TheShips/R/RolfKrake(1863).htm
<<

1964 seems a little late for that!

Your links are great!

>> Yes. Danish soldiers were redcoats too. I think Britain was the great role model, despite 1807. <<

Nothing to do with the red in the flag?

>> And that was the trouble, wasn't it? They became so expensive, that no-one dared use them as they were intended to, for fear of loosing such a huge investment. Prestige-objects to be sure, but still cool. <<

The Kreigsmarine in WW I. If many BB's were lost in battle it would not have changed much of anything, other than Wilhelm's prestige. of course if the British lost BB's it could be problematic. Point: Germany should have risked more to try to change the status quo that worked against them.

>> I'll send you a PM on BH. Feels a little more secure.<<

I think you can also click on my screenname and get my e-addy.

Anschluss . . .

There was a lot of discussion between what was called the Grossdeutsche Lösung (Greater German Solution) and the Kleindeutsche Lösung (Lesser German Solution)en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kleindeutsche_L%C3%B6sung, the greater being a Germany that incorporated both Prussia and Austria under the Prussian Hohenzollerns and the lesser being a Germany without Austria. The Greater German Solution, or Anschluss if you will, was in my opinion just a pipe-dream as long as the Austrian Empire (or to an even greater extent the Austro-Hungarian Empire) was a going concern. No way on God's green Earth were the Habsburgs going to submit themselves to the rule of the Hohenzollerns, and no way did the other German states want a bunch of Hungarians in their national state. Only with the fall of the dynasty, the dismemberment of the Empire in 1918-19 and the creation of a more ethnically homogenous German state, Austria, did Anschluss become an attractive idea to some Austrians and Germans, and then, of course the Allies would hear none of it. I don't think Anschluss was possible at any other time before or since in history than 1938 (give or take a few years). <<

Makes perfect sense! (My bold above).

>> Sad to say, I didn't know that. So there's a theoretical limit to how many Victoria Crosses can be rewarded? <<

Yes. But I doubt if they will run out considering the size of the medal
and the lack of U.K. military action. If my Army friend, the PhD in Mil. Hist., was not off in the field somewhere out of touch I'd ask him about the bronze. He is a big Anglophile. But every now and then he vanishes (on campaign I guess). He is super knowledgeable about armor.

Thanks for the links. Great stuff. With them here in this forum I can find them much better than if e-mails.

I think I was supposed to mail you Iowa photos. Soon.

Here is a dairy question. Why is blue cheese equated with Denmark so much? "Danish blue cheese". Why not Swedish blue cheese, or Hungarian blue cheese?

Catch you later,

Tom

[Rasmus]

Hello again Tom

>>1964 seems a little late for that!<<

Really? I thought the first true example of a warship with a rotating turret was the Monitor in 1862. To have a similar ship in Denmark (even if it still had sails to back up the steam engine) the year after that was quite impressive. We're not much given to being on the forefront of such things.

>>Nothing to do with the red in the flag?<<

Not as far as I know. But I don't know much, I'll admit.

>>The Kreigsmarine in WW I.<<

Kaiserliche Marine. Kriegsmarine was the name only under the Nazi-regime.

>>If many BB's were lost in battle it would not have changed much of anything, other than Wilhelm's prestige. of course if the British lost BB's it could be problematic. Point: Germany should have risked more to try to change the status quo that worked against them.<<

I agree completely. It was a golden opportunity. From a military point of view, they should have gone all in. But my point is, that the military point of view wasn't the only consideration here. Battleships were simply too expensive for any government to risk on a single roll of the dice, even if we don't count Wilhelm's ego. The lesson is, I suppose, that you should never build weapons which you're not prepared to loose. Otherwise they're useless.

>>Yes. But I doubt if they will run out considering the size of the medal and the lack of U.K. military action. If my Army friend, the PhD in Mil. Hist., was not off in the field somewhere out of touch I'd ask him about the bronze. He is a big Anglophile. But every now and then he vanishes (on campaign I guess). He is super knowledgeable about armor.<<

A novel theory. The British avoid war to save their precious French bronze for decorations.

>>Here is a dairy question. Why is blue cheese equated with Denmark so much? "Danish blue cheese". Why not Swedish blue cheese, or Hungarian blue cheese?<<

You caught me with my pants down again. I have no real knowledge about that. I do know that there is a couple of popular Danish brands of blue cheese, which have penetrated the international market. Maybe they dominate the 'blue cheese segment' so completely, that the cheese have been identified with Denmark.

And while we're on (or rather off) the topic. One thing I've always wondered about. The pastries which you call Danish, we call Wienerbrød (Viennese bread). I wonder what it's called in Vienna? American cakes? ;D

See you around

Rasmus

[Die Fledermaus]

Hello again Rasmus,

Been very very busy what with my landlord, pets, elections here, and other stuff.

>> 1964 seems a little late for that! <<

>> Really? <<

Don't you mean 1864??

>> I thought the first true example of a warship with a rotating turret was the Monitor in 1862. <<

Admiral Yi Sun-sin (Korea) had ironclads but no turrets; no turrets with the French ironclads in the Crimean War. The first experiment was the addition of a turntable-mounted shielded gun to HMS Trusty (a floating battery) in 1861. So that was the first turret.

>> To have a similar ship in Denmark (even if it still had sails to back up the steam engine) the year after that was quite impressive. <<

Indeed.

>> Kaiserliche Marine. Kriegsmarine was the name only under the Nazi-regime. <<

The WW I naval flag I have has "kreigsmarine" stamped on the cord. But you are right. However, that was why I was thrown - by the flag.

>> I agree completely. It was a golden opportunity. From a military point of view, they should have gone all in. (German WW I navy BB's). But my point is, that the military point of view wasn't the only consideration here. Battleships were simply too expensive for any government to risk on a single roll of the dice, even if we don't count Wilhelm's ego. The lesson is, I suppose, that you should never build weapons which you're not prepared to loose. Otherwise they're useless. <<

Exactly. Now, the Japanese oddly were too afraid to loose the Yamato as the name symbolized Japan itself. So they did not use her enough when they had better chances. Of course the Japanese navy, IJN, over and over failed to go for the throat and follow up decisively. Something in the Japanese nature?

>> A novel theory. The British avoid war to save their precious French bronze for decorations. <<

No, it just happens they have no wars right now. Although if the Argies want to try Round Two I am sure the Brits will be game. All the stuff about where the bronze comes from is rather apocryphal and subject to legend. I have also heard about Russian cannon from 1854.

>> Maybe they dominate the 'blue cheese segment' so completely, that the cheese have been identified with Denmark. <<

Whatever works!

>> The pastries which you call Danish, we call Wienerbrød (Viennese bread). I wonder what it's called in Vienna? American cakes? ;D <<

When John Kennedy was in Berlin he said, "Ich bin ein Berliner!".
That actually meant he was a type of Berlin pastry. "Ich bin Berlin" would have been correct. One time Jimmy Carter was in Poland, and during a speech to many Poles instead of saying "Your hopes for the future" the translator came up with "Your lusts for the future."!

>> See you around <<

Yep!

Tom

[Rasmus]

Hi Tom

>>Don't you mean 1864??<<

D'oh! I seem to be suffering from a severe case of dyscalculia. All right, you win.

But what is a couple of hundred years between friends? I mean, politically and militarily, there was hardly any difference between 1864 and 1964, was there?

>>The WW I naval flag I have has "kreigsmarine" stamped on the cord. But you are right. However, that was why I was thrown - by the flag.<<

Well... it's not really wrong, I suppose. Kriegsmarine in German means simply 'navy.' In German texts they would talk about the British Kriegsmarine and the US Kriegsmarine without giving it a second thought, so I don't think anyone at the time would have been confused if you called the Kaiserliche Marine Kriegsmarine.

>>Exactly. Now, the Japanese oddly were too afraid to loose the Yamato as the name symbolized Japan itself. So they did not use her enough when they had better chances. Of course the Japanese navy, IJN, over and over failed to go for the throat and follow up decisively. Something in the Japanese nature?<<

I think Yamamoto held back his battleships for the 'decisive battle.' It just seems that he could never make up his mind as to when that decisive battle was going to be.

>>No, it just happens they have no wars right now. Although if the Argies want to try Round Two I am sure the Brits will be game. All the stuff about where the bronze comes from is rather apocryphal and subject to legend. I have also heard about Russian cannon from 1854.<<

Yeah. Probably more myth than fact.

>>When John Kennedy was in Berlin he said, "Ich bin ein Berliner!". That actually meant he was a type of Berlin pastry. [glow=red,2,300]"Ich bin Berlin"[/glow] would have been correct.<<

"I am Berlin!" ? I doubt that would have gone down well. I think his grammar was quite correct. A Berliner is a person from Berlin - even if it has also come to mean a donut-like pastry with jelly-filling.

Bye for now

Rasmus

[Die Fledermaus]

Hi Rasmus,

I've been very very busy with many things: getting cats spayed, being harassed by the landlord forcing me to do major work in the storeroom where my stuff is, and visiting many lovely locale sites as the Autumn foliage is peaking and he sun is out. See the photo I took on the home page of this site.

Historical stuff upcoming too: www.centennial2008.org/

"Last Four World War One Vets - Touching Story"

LINK HERE

If you need to register to see this I do not know. It is on this board. If you do, please take a moment and do so; I will approve it asap, and then you can see stuff without me having to explain it, and time is short right now.

>> Well... it's not really wrong, I suppose. Kriegsmarine in German means simply 'navy.' <<

I know what it means and it could be merely descriptive. Ever hear of it being used in WW I?

>> I think Yamamoto held back his battleships for the 'decisive battle.' It just seems that he could never make up his mind as to when that decisive battle was going to be. <<

They never realized the Decisive Battle would never come as it would be all about air bases in the Pacific, and the Americans built them faster and better, and after the first year or so had better pilots as the Japanese replacement system was too slow. The U.S. also developed better planes. The Hellcat was based on a captured Zeke - the only plane designed after the war started!

Bye for now

Tom

[Rasmus]

Hi Tom

>>I've been very very busy with many things: getting cats spayed, being harassed by the landlord forcing me to do major work in the storeroom where my stuff is<<

Maybe you could get the landlord spayed? Just a thought.

>>"Last Four World War One Vets - Touching Story"<<

Very nice. Sad to think. The war will be nothing but history in a few years. I hope everybody has gotten all the interviews they needed.

>>Ever hear of it being used in WW I?<<

I just checked Tirpitz's memoirs. He seems just to use the word 'Marine' without qualifiers. I suppose the prefix kriegs- is a little superfluous.

>>The Hellcat was based on a captured Zeke - the only plane designed after the war started!<<

I never heard that before. I just thought it was an upgraded, better-engineered version of the Wildcat. They certainly look very similar.

Hey

Rasmus

[Die Fledermaus]

Neutered in his case. And that is too good for him.

>> I suppose the prefix kriegs- is a little superfluous. <<

Or deliberately bellicose.

The Hellcat was based on a captured Zeke in the Aleutians. At least that is what I read in a paperback on Yamamoto years ago. It surely was not completely based on it, as it was on the design boards already, but my understanding is changes were made based on the Japanese plane. If I can find sources beyond that book I will refer to them later.

Try this:

>> The first prototype, the XF6F-1, was under development when the war started. Based on combat experience against the Zero and the intact A6M captured in the Aleutians, it was clear that speed and better climb would be needed from the Hellcat. <<

www.acepilots.com/planes/f6f_hellcat.html

Check it out.

[Rasmus]

Hey Tom

Again, sorry about the wait.

>>Or deliberately bellicose.<<

Perhaps. Although I doubt that Hitler's Germany would have a problem with that.

>>The Hellcat was based on a captured Zeke in the Aleutians. At least that is what I read in a paperback on Yamamoto years ago. It surely was not completely based on it, as it was on the design boards already, but my understanding is changes were made based on the Japanese plane. If I can find sources beyond that book I will refer to them later.

The first prototype, the XF6F-1, was under development when the war started. Based on combat experience against the Zero and the intact A6M captured in the Aleutians, it was clear that speed and better climb would be needed from the Hellcat.<<

Certainly, knowledge of the capabilities of the prime enemy fighter must have played its part in the latter stages of the design-process. But that's a long way from considering the Zero an inspiration or model for the Hellcat. They were representatives of completely different design-philosophies and about as alike as peas and houses if you ask me. The Zero being delicate and nimble, the Hellcat being strong and rather brutish.

BTW. Maybe we ought to merge these two threads. There's hardly any reason to keep them separate, as they have evolved a long way past their original purpose.

See ya

Rasmus

[Die Fledermaus]

OK, where were we?! ;D

Six months is not so bad - the Holiday season began many distractions back then. An Army friend of mine took three years once!

The Hellcat story may be somewhat apocryphal after examination. Some improvements or alterations may have been made but the Hellcat, indeed, was in planning before that event in the Aleutians. So, I concede that. I wonder if what they in fact saw that it was a Zeke and not a Zero. A6M2 and beyond were Zekes. A6M1 was the Zero. Check it out: www.vectorsite.net/avzero.html

I have no way to merge threads other than to manually copy and paste posts. And I am already pressed for time! ;D