The Myth of Alpha Training

[Die Fledermaus]

The below is a copy of a post in the Rare Dogs thread, now closed as to start a second thread.

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>> Every dog behaviorist I've heard of says you always have to be the alpha of your dog, the leader, top boss. <<

Specious. And I know many who claim otherwise. Establishing rules is one think; domination, and hierarchy, is another.

A home is not a pack, even if there are no other dogs.

Warren Eckstein is one of a number who totally rejects what you've said and inveighs against such theories every week, along with "crate training". And I have been listening to him for decades with complete confidence in his accepted expertise.

Rules are one thing. Control and domination is another. And don't tell me rules cannot be enforced unless someone is the "alpha".

There are some dogs that need extra training; there are always exceptions.

If your dog is inclined toward leadership or social climbing, you may inadvertently awaken his alpha dog instincts. If you treat your dog as an equal, if you allow him special privileges, or if you consistently allow him to disobey commands, he may begin to consider himself the alpha dog - only an alpha would normally receive these privileges.

The above is the case in some dogs already in places where the human has been failing in establishing rules and giving too many favors and privileges - thus awakening alpha instincts in some dogs already inclined to such.

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The Myth of Alpha Training

>> I saw a documentary about wolves on TV. At one point in the film a papa wolf led his pups out of the den, began to play with them, and then rolled over on his back, supposedly "signifying submission". He then encouraged them to jump on his stomach and chest and even allowed them to nip at his ears and nose. This was enormously fun to watch because it put both papa and progeny in a happy, joyous emotional state. <<

>> After thinking about this for a while I decided-just as an experiment-to do the exact, polar opposite of what Coren had suggested. If the alpha theory were true, I would be creating problems by allowing my dog Freddie—an un-neutered male Dalmatian—to think he was the pack leader, right? But what would happen if the alpha theory were false? I wanted to find out. So I got down on my hands and knees and began wrestling with Fred; growling at him and slapping him lightly (and sometimes not so lightly) on his sides, back, and haunches; getting him riled up. At one point, after he was really into roughhousing with me-jumping and twisting around, batting at me with his front paws, even nipping at my nose and ears, totally happy-I rolled over on my back.

"Oh, no!" I cried, acting submissive. "You got me! I surrender! You got me!"

And, just like the young wolves on TV, Freddie loved this game. It made him even happier.

Later on our evening walk, a funny thing happened: Freddie was twice as attentive and responsive as he had been before. <<

>> It stimulated and reinforced positive social feelings. It was fun. It was a game. It put us on the same level. It made the dogs confident, happy, and emotionally bonded in the most positive way possible. Did any of them suddenly think they were the alpha dog? Of course not. If they had, why would they then be so quick to obey me afterward instead of expecting me to obey them? <<

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The Myth of
Alpha Training, part 2

>> I’ve found that there are three fatal flaws in the alpha theory—three ideas that, when analyzed properly, don't make any sense. <<

>> So we have to ask ourselves this: when one dog acts submissively towards another is he doing it because a) he recognizes the other dog's rank and status? Or because b) he recognizes that the other dog is stronger physically or emotionally? The answer is probably b <<

>> Still, people often tell me, "My dog is alpha," or, "My dog is very dominant." This is simply not the case. The language needs to be more exact: the dog is simply "assertive", not dominant, and definitely not alpha. When you act "dominant" toward a dog, he can only experience what you're doing as aggression. This is a popular training technique (or used to be), but not a good one. <<

>> What really sets dogs and wolves apart from other social animals is not the pack hierarchy but how they hunt. The fact is, the pack instinct only exists to enable canines to hunt large prey by working together as a cooperative social unit. <<

>> The question becomes obvious: is there a direct correlation between sociability and the canine prey drive? The answer should be just as obvious—yes there is.

When you look at the alpha fallacy with these three flaws in mind, it makes no sense. No wonder some ethologists are starting to question it. Now, some alpha theorists are suggesting that there isn't just one alpha wolf, there may be as many as five of or six! How much sense does this make to you? However, if you begin to look at the pack from the point of view of a new scientific discipline called Emergence Theory, which began to develop in the late 1950s, you may begin to understand that the pack is not a top-down hierarchy, but a bottom-up heterarchy. Knowing this may totally change how you relate to and train your dog. <<

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Those above are just a few highlights of the articles.

A main point is that some dogs may be inclined to being alpha especially if rules are lax by a negligent permissive human. The other main point is that dogs want to be part of a harmonious social network (such as needed for the hunt, as stated above). A third major point is that most dogs are not so inclined and do not need - nor should they be - dominated and in effect bossed around even if that objective is being obtained without harsh measures (which are worst of all).

Being the rule-giver and the controlling person does not mean one has to dominate a dog, which is by nature social. and thus became the "Alpha" boss. The exceptions are stated above.

More. . .

>> The Pet Show - Listen here and now to Warren Eckstein's radio ...

The myth of the Alpha in dog behavior and training. Segment 5 • Is the Cockapoo a good breed of dog for young kids. • Rescue dog is aggressive to other dogs ...
warreneckstein.com/petshowaudio/december08/ - 27k - Cached -

The Pet Show - Listen here and now to Warren Eckstein's radio ...

The nonsense about Alpha dogs and domination. Segment 5 ... The importance of enjoying your pet and training with a hug and a kiss rather than with ...
warreneckstein.com/petshowaudio/october08/ - 56k -

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I am going to copy this entire post and add it to the Dog forum.

[Hamsters82]

I'm not talking about domination over an animal, I'm talking about being it's leader. Well you can listen to Warren Eckstien, I'll watch and continue to listen to Victoria Stillwell, who's on Animal Planet and has been a dog behaviorist for over ten years.

So we have to ask ourselves this: when one dog acts submissively towards another is he doing it because a) he recognizes the other dog's rank and status? Or because b) he recognizes that the other dog is stronger physically or emotionally? The answer is probably b <<

^^I disagree. I've watched shows on wolves where the alpha will bite the omega and the omega will cower down to show which is the leader, they know this and obey the rules. I've also tried that theory of playing submission to a dog and I could see from the dog's movements that he knew he could be the leader as he acted as one, apart from the biting as I didn't let it get that far.

Well I disagree with what you have said, except for the domination part which I didn't mean at all when we were talking in the pm. As I stated before, also in the pm, we will be the alpha to our dog. Cause as he wants respect from me, I expect that in return.

[Die Fledermaus]

I see no way you could have read those articles and listened to those online radio broadcasts in so little time. And I wish you would before this discussion continues further. I could not have read them and listened that quickly.

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Much of this Alpha crap, I forgot to mention, comes from this joker who is busy selling his methods for his own profit - Cesar Millan.

From Wiki:

>> Criticism

Despite his results, some view his methods as outdated. Among his methods are quick leash corrections, quick assertive touches, and walks to drain energy. One controversial method he uses is the alpha roll, where he physically rolls a dog on its back. Patricia McConnell writes in her book The Other End of The Leash, "Well-socialized, healthy dogs don't pin other dogs to the ground." (p. 138)

Dr. Nicholas Dodman, the director of the Animal Behavior Clinic at the Cummings School of Veterinary Medicine of Tufts University, has said "Cesar Millan's methods are based on flooding and punishment. The results, though immediate, will be only transitory." 1

Jean Donaldson, the San Francisco SPCA Director of The Academy for Dog Trainers has criticized Millan for physically confronting aggressive dogs and using choke collars for fearful dogs.[10]

On September 6, 2006, the American Humane Association issued a press release criticizing Millan's tactics and called on the National Geographic Channel to cease airing the program immediately. [11]

In October 2006, the International Association of Animal Behavior Consultants wrote a letter to the National Geographic Channel regarding concerns "that the program may lead children to engage in unsafe behaviors." The Association called for a change in the program's rating of TV- <<

[Hamsters82]

Patricia McConnell writes in her book The Other End of The Leash, "Well-socialized, healthy dogs don't pin other dogs to the ground."
^No they do it by cowering a bit or putting their tail between their legs or moving away from the other dog.

I don't want to argue. You believe your thing and listen to whom you listen to and I'll do the same.

[Die Fledermaus]

Except in the cases I cited already above, this alpha stuff is a crock.

There MAY be a small number of breeds that are exceptions, and I highly doubt if cockapoos are among them (although they are not a breed at all, of course.); or when some negligent permissive owner allows his dog to run amok and thus, in some cases, bring forth latent alpha tendencies (that later need firm correction) in that dog.

But normally dogs need rules and boundaries as to behavior. they do not need to be dominated and made to feel at the bottom of hierarchy; to be submissive. They are in a human family, not a wild pack. and they are domesticated canines the result of thousands of years of selective breeding; they are not adult coyotes taken from the wild.

My cats here know some rules, and it is very cute how they do. None of them go into the bedroom as I get mad, although if I leave the door open a bit eventually a few try to slowly and tentatively sneak in. Audrey knows all this and when she runs in (thew only one who does that) she immediately hops on my bed and rolls on her back letting me rub her belly. Sort of like asking permission. So sweet.

They know other rules, such as not jumping on some things - as I get mad and there are often sticky glue boards on them. Now, they avoid certain places on their own, and with no glue boards.

None of them are dominated and coerced, as that discredited idiot Cesar Millan does to dogs in what borders on abuse, if not physically mentally. And I know there are some differences between cats and dogs (duh), but the point is rules not domination and coercion.

As alluded to above, wild canines do not hunt together cooperatively
in packs because some are afraid of the alpha wolf. They do it as a social cooperative effort; each knows their role. Much of the alpha situation involves breeding and pup care issues - irrelevant in human homes.

If any aggressive behavior occurs in a dog, and I said "if", and which may be due to the owner's previous errors, leash training and basic commands are the solution. Establish rules and trust, not domination.

There are MANY articles and many comments easily found ripping this alpha "pack leader" training CRAP Milan pushes (for his own profit), and which others have copied out of expedience. Warren Eckstein, as one example, has NO reason to do that - he was a very successful trainer and expert twenty years ago. Those who never heard of the superior methods to Milan's theories need to look into this further.

Here is one article of many. . .

LINK

>> Today on the New York Times editorial page Author and Dog Expert Mark Derr takes issue with the methods of Author, Dog Expert and Media Star, Cesar Milan, also known as "The Dog Whisperer." Apparently Mr. Derr feels that Mr. Milan has both simplified and harshened dog training with his "cookie cutter approach" which is "designed to correct the problems resulting from a failure of the human to be the pack leader and to dominate the dog completely". <<

What Milan wants is specious garbage and borderline abuse. it is false.

Continuing. . .

>> Mr. Derr, a noted dog historian, advocates a more individualistic, psychologically based and reward oriented solution to these same problems.

Well, as an Author, Dog Lover and Self Appointed Dog Expert myself, I would like to weigh in with my own very special third plan which I call" Flexible Cohabitation."

When practicing "Flexible Cohabitation" I encourage the human in the equation to view the pet companion as they would an exchange student from another planet. For instance, Neptune. Once that is accomplished, all that is required is to sit back with an ice cold beverage and allow the dog to behave as he or she wishes. And watch the show with interest and amusement.

Because unlike Mark Derr, I have never had the patience and follow through necessary to get very far with the psychology and reward approach to training. And unlike Cesar Milan, who was raised in the macho culture of Mexico, I don't have any tremendous urge to dominate. Therefore I don't expect anyone who subscribes to my plan to put themselves in harm's way or subject themselves to painful puncture wounds by doing the alpha rollover when their dog appears aggressive.

No...If I want to be covered in dog hair and mud, all I need to do is sit down on my own furniture!!

But Merrill, you say, you can't mean that you are advocating letting dogs run wild through your home? To which I reply 'Obviously you have never been to my home." It is no accident that frequent visitors have compared my living room to The Bad Lands of South Dakota.

By adopting my approach, you will learn the benefits of "asphalt water skiing" (patent pending), my way of taking your dog for a walk that not only exercises the animal but also shapes and tones your own calves, thighs, biceps and abdominals. Yes, I can show you how to simply hook the pet to the leash of your choice, then hold on tight and get ready to go on the ride of your life!

And that's not all.

Under the rules of "Flexible Cohabitation" you will also learn; how allowing your dog full access to your plate at meal times can help you cut down your calorie consumption by thousands of calories a day; how letting dogs make their own rules within your home teaches a form of Zen non attachment to material goods that can increase your life span for years, if not decades.

Plus no one ever points out how bad it is for the self esteem to try and force a dog to heel or walk slower than you do. I think you'll be amazed at how much more free time you will have when you try my plan of not expecting the dog to do anything except enjoy himself . And if , for some reason, these results are not quite to your liking , you can still go to bed at night pleased with the knowledge that your dogs are happy. (Unless they sprawl across the bed on their backs, like mine do. Then you can probably sleep better on the couch.)
<<

In case you have not figured it out, she is saying it somewhat facetiously and tongue-in-cheek, but clearly mocking Milan.

If you ever institute Milan's nonsense with a dog it will be a shame for both of you.

More next post below. . .

[Die Fledermaus]

This post refers to what is in the post directly above this one. . .

Mark Derr's books on dogs are easily found on Amazon and elsewhere. Here is one article in a newspaper.

>> A PACK OF LIES

By MARK DERR
Published: August 31, 2006

WITH a compelling personal story as the illegal immigrant made good because of his uncanny ability to understand dogs, Cesar Millan has taken the world of canine behavior — or rather misbehavior — by storm. He has the top-rated program, “Dog Whisperer,” on the National Geographic Channel, a best-selling book and a devoted following, and he has been the subject of several glowing magazine articles.

He is even preparing to release his own “Illusion” collar and leash set, named for his wife and designed to better allow people to walk their dogs the “Cesar way” — at close heel, under strict control.

Essentially, National Geographic and Cesar Millan have cleverly repackaged and promoted a simplistic view of the dog’s social structure and constructed around it a one-size-fits-all, cookie-cutter approach to dog training. In Mr. Millan’s world, dog behavioral problems result from a failure of the human to be the “pack leader,” to dominate the dog (a wolf by any other name) completely.

While Mr. Millan rejects hitting and yelling at dogs during training, his confrontational methods include physical and psychological intimidation, like finger jabs, choke collars, extended sessions on a treadmill and what is called flooding, or overwhelming the animal with the thing it fears. Compared with some training devices still in use — whips and cattle prods, for example — these are mild, but combined with a lack of positive reinforcement or rewards, they place Mr. Millan firmly in a long tradition of punitive dog trainers.

Mr. Millan brings his pastiche of animal behaviorism and pop psychology into millions of homes a week. He’s a charming, one-man wrecking ball directed at 40 years of progress in understanding and shaping dog behavior and in developing nonpunitive, reward-based training programs, which have led to seeing each dog as an individual, to understand what motivates it, what frightens it and what its talents and limitations are. Building on strengths and working around and through weaknesses, these trainers and specialists in animal behavior often work wonders with their dogs, but it takes time.

Mr. Millan supposedly delivers fast results. His mantra is “exercise, discipline, affection,” where discipline means “rules, boundaries, limitations.” Rewards are absent and praise scarce, presumably because they will upset the state of calm submission Mr. Millan wants in his dogs. Corrections abound as animals are forced to submit or face their fear, even if doing so panics them.

Mr. Millan builds his philosophy from a simplistic conception of the dog’s “natural” pack, controlled by a dominant alpha animal (usually male). In his scheme, that leader is the human, which leads to the conclusion that all behavior problems in dogs derive from the failure of the owner or owners to dominate. (Conveniently, by this logic, if Mr. Millan’s intervention doesn’t produce lasting results, it is the owner’s fault.)

Women are the worst offenders in his world. In one of the outtakes included in the four-DVD set of the first season of “Dog Whisperer,” Mr. Millan explains that a woman is “the only species that is wired different from the rest.” And a “woman always applies affection before discipline,” he says. “Man applies discipline then affection, so we’re more psychological than emotional. All animals follow dominant leaders; they don’t follow lovable leaders.”

Mr. Millan’s sexism is laughable; his ethology is outdated.

The notion of the “alpha pack leader” dominating all other pack members is derived from studies of captive packs of unrelated wolves and thus bears no relationship to the social structure of natural packs, according to L. David Mech, one of the world’s leading wolf experts. In the wild, the alpha wolves are merely the breeding pair, and the pack is generally comprised of their juvenile offspring and pups. <<

I said exactly that above!

>> “The typical wolf pack,” Dr. Mech wrote in The Canadian Journal of Zoology in 1999, “is a family, with the adult parents guiding the activities of a group in a division-of-labor system.” In a natural wolf pack, “dominance contests with other wolves are rare, if they exist at all,” he writes.

That’s a far cry from the dominance model that Mr. Millan attributes to the innate need of dogs by way of wolves.

Unlike their wolf forebears, dogs exist in human society. They have been selectively bred for 15,000 or more years to live with people. Studies have shown that almost from birth they are attentive to people, and that most are eager to please, given proper instruction and encouragement.

But sometimes the relationship goes very wrong, and it is time to call on a professional.

Aggression is perhaps the most significant of the behavioral problems that may afflict more than 20 percent of the nation’s 65 million dogs, because it can lead to injury and death. Mr. Millan often treats aggression by forcing the dog to exercise extensively on a treadmill, by asserting his authority over the dog by rolling it on its back in the “alpha rollover,” and through other forms of intimidation, including exposure to his pack of dogs. <<

Psychological abuse to such an extent I consider it criminal.

>> Forcefully rolling a big dog on its back was once recommended as a way to establish dominance, but it is now recognized as a good way to get bitten. People are advised not to try it. In fact, many animal behaviorists believe that in the long run meeting aggression with aggression breeds more aggression. <<

At best, it results in submissive fear. Who wants THAT??

>> More important, aggression often has underlying medical causes that might not be readily apparent — hip dysplasia or some other hidden physical ailment that causes the dog to bite out of pain; hereditary forms of sudden rage that require a medical history and genealogy to diagnose; inadequate blood flow to the brain or a congenital brain malformation that produces aggression and can only be uncovered through a medical examination. Veterinary behaviorists, having found that many aggressive dogs suffer from low levels of serotonin, have had success in treating such dogs with fluoxetine (the drug better known as Prozac).

Properly treating aggression, phobias, anxiety and fears from the start can literally save time and money. Mr. Millan’s quick fix might make for good television and might even produce lasting results in some cases. But it flies in the face of what professional animal behaviorists — either trained and certified veterinarians or ethologists — have learned about normal and abnormal behavior in dogs. <<

LINK HERE

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"Alpha training" for dogs is abusive, fallacious, and a big crock of you-know-what. It is at best a cheap temporary fix which works well for short television shows, for people with limited attention spans and no patience, and for Cesar Milan's profits. It should be made illegal.

[Die Fledermaus]

An important article on this issue at this link:

dogtime.com/cesar-millan-and-ian-dunbar.html

>> The dog trainer's trainer

While Cesar Millan is dazzling TV audiences, Ian Dunbar has been quietly gaining the respect of dog experts and dog lovers everywhere.



Kelly and Ian Dunbar with Casey, one of DogTime's office dogs.

Chances are you've heard of Cesar Millan, Hollywood's famous dog whisperer. In recent years, he's taken the world by storm, starring in National Geographic Channel's Dog Whisperer and putting out a variety of training books and DVDs. Millan's philosophy? We, as humans, must act as dominant pack leaders; our dogs should behave as submissive followers.Chances are you haven't heard of Ian Dunbar, soft-spoken Northern California behaviorist. Rather than physical corrections and alpha rollovers, Dunbar advocates a trusting, less subservient relationship, treating dogs as companions and family members. Dunbar's training methods don't make for dramatic television, but watching him quietly train--without so much as wagging a finger--is riveting to anyone who has ever tried to teach their dog anything.

A different approach. . .

Ian Dunbar has been winning over dogs, dog owners, and dog trainers for years with his accessible, effective positive-reinforcement approach. Talk with the most respected names in the dog training world and you discover Dunbar's impact is unparalleled."His contribution to this field is immeasurable," says Patricia McConnell, author of The Other End of the Leash, co-host of NPR's Calling All Pets, and founder of Dog's Best Friend Training. "Ian Dunbar created an entirely new perspective about dog training. He deserves tremendous credit for teaching us to be loving with our dogs and to have fun with the training."

Let's not get physical. . .

Dunbar's hands-off, reward-based approach stands in contrast to Millan's dominance-based philosophy and physical corrections. He emphasizes that communicating with your dog is far more satisfying than dominating your dog and stresses that even children can use his positive reinforcement methods to become able trainers."Ian carried the torch for lure-and-reward training," says Sue Sternberg, founder and owner of Rondout Valley Animals for Adoption in upstate New York and author of Great Dog Adoptions: A Guide for Shelters and Successful Dog Adoptions. "He converted an entire generation of yank 'em, crank 'em dog trainers into better communicators."

Doctor, teacher, trainer. . .

Raised on a farm in England, Dunbar's connection with animals formed early and undeniably. After attending the Royal Veterinary School in London, he earned his Ph.D. in animal behavior at the University of California, Berkeley, merging--what at the time were--two very discrete aspects of animal study: medicine and behavior.For him the pairing was natural--and long overdue. "People don't bite their hairdressers or the ob-gyns," says Dunbar. "But biting's an issue for vets, so it's in our best interest to know a bit about behavior."

He moved to Berkeley in 1971 and later taught a dog behavior course, which was the first time he realized how hungry dog owners were to understand their own pets. Discouraged that he couldn't find a training course for his own young puppy, he started a school, Sirius Dog Training in 1981. (With 19 locations, it's become one of the country's biggest training centers.) Dog training was changed forever.

Groundbreaking ideas. . .

He didn't know it at the time, but Dunbar introduced a concept so revolutionary he's credited with launching what is now commonly regarded as the modern era in dog training: Train puppies before six months of age--off leash (the way they live at home)--and use rewards rather than punishment to teach proper behavior.Today, the notion that very young puppies can not only be trained, socialized, and handled, but that doing so actually prevents most problem behaviors from developing, is a founding truth of modern dog training.

"Ian Dunbar understood that problems up front lead to problems down the road and he pounded the podium talking about early socialization and enrichment," days Nicholas Dodman, author of The Well-Adjusted Dog: Dr. Dodman's Seven Steps to Lifelong Health and Happiness for Your Best Friend (Houghton Mifflin, 2008) and Professor, Section Head, and Program Director of Animal Behavior Department of Clinical Sciences at Tufts' Cummings School of Veterinary Medicine.

Building on success. . .

The soundness of Dunbar's methods garnered worldwide attention and his techniques were embraced by trainers everywhere. In 1993 he founded the Association of Pet Dog Trainers, an international organization devoted to promoting human-canine relationships based on trust and respect. Along the way, he's written six dog training books and hosted the popular British television series Dogs with Dunbar.In 1999, Dunbar met fellow trainer (and future wife) Kelly Gorman, cofounder and president of Open Paw, a nonprofit dedicated to keeping cats and dogs out of shelters and in loving homes. Though their techniques differ slightly, the Dunbars' philosophies towards dogs meshed perfectly. By 2000, they were living together in Berkeley, California as a family and married in 2004. Dogstar Daily, the online arm of Open Paw, was born shortly thereafter in February 2006.

Different methods for different dogs. . .

At this point it's worth asking: With so much experience, and the respect and veneration of so many of the field's most renowned figures, why is Dunbar still relatively unknown and Cesar Millan a household name? "Cesar works with aggressive dogs, and that's sexy these days," says Patricia McConnell. "But Ian's methods are successful for the average dog owner. What's more, they have been used by professionals for years to successfully treat serious aggression problems. And, they're fun."

With more families than ever bringing dogs into their homes, and more dog trainers embracing Dunbar's accessible, family-friendly techniques, 2008 may well mark the year that the "dominance mentality" takes a back seat to the reward-based training, which promotes understanding and living peacefully with one's pets.

"The biggest development in the world of dog training is that people are actually training their dogs, and the popularity of Cesar may be responsible for that," says Claudia Kawczynska, editor of Bark magazine. "But the fact is, people are enjoying training more and the amazing bond that develops through training, and that move toward positive reinforcement started with Ian Dunbar." <<

[Hamsters82]

I have tried to explain to you what I mean and you're just not getting me. You keep saying I don't know my facts and that I'm a part of this one guy's training. I know who I listen to and it's not him; I know where my facts come from as I've watched a trainer train dogs and know she is good. That's who's training I will follow.

In your pm you said it's finished, guess again. I again will try to explain myself calmly and hopefully this time you can see where I'm coming from.

In fact I'm typing this without any anger what-so-ever although that wasn't the case when reading your pm. So again like I said I will try to, again *sigh*, explain to you exactly what I mean by what I have previously stated.

[Die Fledermaus]

Been busy with moving a giant bookcase upstairs. Heavy as hell and getting it in and out of the elevator was a trial.

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Important. This needs clarification.

It is one thing to be the leader, the one to establish rules. Democracy between a human and several dogs is not the way to go.

But Millan's alpha stuff is different in that he is far more into domination in a macho manner. It may have some use when dealing with three or four rotweillers who a lax and negligent owner may have allowed to become disobedient and to even show aggressive tendencies. Millan's stuff may be one method of applying a quick fix to the situation.

As I continue to think about this I believe the problem and disagreement may come from our definitions of "alpha". Millan's alpha techniques I reject; but if the human setting the rules can be described as "alpha", well fine. I obviously set the rules around here; no one wants chaos. But domination, and perhaps intimidation, of any dog is not needed.

So, Millan's "alpha" is not necessarily the ONLY "alpha". I think
we've got bogged down in that, and I was not clear in pointing that out when I ripped "alpha": it was Millan's simplistic version of it I was ripping, although I cited him incessantly.

I have certain critters here that well know rules and boundaries, and when they cross (which rarely occurs now) then a brief word and a dirty look is actually enough to correct such mistakes.

I will try to clarify all this more later. Gotta go. Want to try to get a DTV converter!

[Die Fledermaus]

>> I am sure there are many of us who would work different in some of the situations but that is the joke among dog trainers – there is only one thing two trainers will agree on when three of them are talking. That is that they third one is wrong <<

I wrote to the International Association of Canine Professionals (on the Web) for their position. That was basically their concluding non-committal remark. Leaves the rest of us to argue amongst ourselves, too.

Anyway, as I do more research the main point right now is that Millan's alpha methods are NOT the only alpha methods, and other approaches de-emphasize the alpha-domination thing. Of course the animals all need to know the rules and to be corrected when doing something wrong.

This whole dog training issue is become more interesting and more involved. Finding the right technique for the right dog seems a chore, but a needed one.

More later. . .

[Hamsters82]

Okay this is how I see dog training for some of you who think I'm crazy with this submission thing. Now that I am calmed down I will try to convey to you all where I stand on this. This is my answer from a pm I previously answered:

and no evidence or logic will dissuade you.
^I have listened to people who train dogs on various Animal Planet shows, not just the one I usually refer too. I've read dog books saying what's what by different authors. I'm always ready to learn new things, but all of those say the same thing about dog training. You're going to call all of those authors and tv show hosts liars?

How you came to support his theories for all dogs I do not know
^I'm not supporting his theory at all. I don't even know who the man is, how I can support someone if I've never heard of him. I go by what I read and see on tv.

it is how you came to it (unknown)
^I have told you countless times where I have come by my information. Look above and read it again and that's where I get my info from.

Rules and boundaries are of course needed.
^That's what I mean by being the leader, to enforce the rules. Example: Children listen to their parents because they enforce the rules and can still love you doing it gently. Dad says, "Don't cross the street when it's a green light.", so we listen because Dad told us so. Mom says, "Be good boy and maybe you'll get something for it." You're a good boy and you're rewarded. You figure out that whatever your parents say are for your own good and that they love you and if you're good enough you can get rewarded for it.

Same with a dog. You tell the dog to heel, and when he does you praise him with a "good boy" or a big petting or maybe even a treat. You tell the dog to sit and give him praises when he does; this dog learns that you are his parent and when he does something right he's rewarded with a hug or a treat. And that owner and pet love each other because they know where they stand.

That's the type of training I'm talking about. The type where you're still one higher above the dog, but you both love each other cause there is order in this dog's life and he loves you for it and other reasons and you love the dog too.

Just yesterday I was looking up dogs to see if some could fit for my new story and I read a sentence about the Karelian Bear Dog and it said: if you don't force yourself as the leader, this dog will walk all over you.

The training I said above, is what I mean. Not the forcefulness of "get down or I'm going to kick it in you", that's animal abuse. This way is much easier and it doesn't harm the dog and all is well. That is what I've learned and read and that is the way I'll do it with our new dog. I'm pretty sure that's how Dad did it when he trained his Irish Setter.

You claimed never to have heard of any other training methods
^I really don't remember saying that and when I get angry at something I tend to repeat and not be able to get out what I'm trying to say. I'm calm now and so hopefully you understand where I stand on dog training now.

Dunbar advocates a trusting, less subservient relationship, treating dogs as companions and family members.
^I agree, they should be treated as such. I don't remember ever saying they shouldn't be. If a hamster is part of the family, why not a dog?

And that ends that discussion, permanently.
^Yes it does because clearly you took me being angry as sign that I support horrible training where I'm going to abuse the dog into submission where I would never ever do that. Hopefully you can see, from the above, where I stand now.

[Die Fledermaus]

I have posted questions regarding this on dog forums and elsewhere.

Basically, from what I have gathered so far there are very many techniques; the IACP actually implied each trainer has their own! (So what the heck are we supposed to do to pick the right one??). They did give me a "how to pick a good trainer" guide, for whatever it is worth. although that is not the subject in consideration right now.

The famous New Skete monks do involve the alpha concept (not Millan's version, of course), but they practice great kindness and closeness even sleeping with your dog. Mary did sleep with Jerry the lab, and now I know where she got that idea - from the monks themselves. But I never once heard of, saw, or were told of (by her) anything that would be remotely "alpha" with her and Jerry, and I knew them since she was a puppy.

So, how many versions of "alpha" are there? Rhetorical question. Maybe thousands? What of other versions? How many that successfully avoid the "alpha" concept? I think Ian Dunbar, and Derr, see above stories in this thread, do so avoid it.

It is involved. But one thing I know right now and stand by: Millan's versions are dubious at best and highly inappropriate and unnecessary except in certain extreme cases, and then, as others have referenced (see above in this thread) they are merely quick fixes. To apply HIS version of alpha to a cockapoo puppy in such a situation is absurd.

I want to get more information. But the professional organizations will never promote or condemn the different techniques of their members. I think I will also try the ASPCA and HSUS.

I will also ask PeTA which I consider entirely more credible than Millan.

More when I get feedback. . .

[Die Fledermaus]

www.dogforums.com/2-general-dog-forum/43050-cesar-milan.html

Read this entire important link carefully. Add to it if you wish.

[Hamsters82]

I told you my point of view on it from above, which I guess you didn't read as you keep going on and on about. People have different methods, period. And stop bringing up this Milan fellow; I do not know who he is, nor do I follow his training methods.

[Die Fledermaus]

When I was at the WKC Dog Show earlier this week, I asked about training, and a few owners were big fans of Victoria Stilwell.

www.victoriastilwell.com/

I only heard the name a few times. But this was on her site, and it suggests methods entirely different from the domination/confrontation techniques:

>> Victoria has been able to share her insight and passion for positive, reward-based dog training with an ever-broadening audience. Central to her philosophy is the idea that to communicate effectively with your dog, you must learn to Think Dog. <<

Check the rest out on the site if you wish. . .

Here is more:

>> Stilwell is passionate about using positive reinforcement training methods that enhance a dog's ability to learn while increasing confidence. The results are a healthy, well-adjusted pet.

She is firmly against the use of forceful, dominance-based training techniques which often result in 'quick fixes' but ultimately cause more long-term harm than good. <<

That directly attacks what Cesar Millan does.

End of story.