Makeeda Has Cancer? Reports From the Vet

[Die Fledermaus]

I'd post photos but the memory card reader is temporarily out of action. Later.

As for vets, even when we take a critter there and they can do nothing at least we have the satisfaction that we tried, and we can look the animal in the eye without guilt. We went today, and things were sadly undeterminable, not without a battery of expensive tests leading to possible heroic and even costlier measures (not feasible or even humane). I had expected he could look at the conditions and tell me what it is, but he could only speculate; he was very noncommittal.

Makeeda is the daughter of Rainy, who died months ago, and she was born here in Jan. of 2003. Here are the symptoms. If anyone has any knowledge of these from any source please pass along your thoughts.

Gradual fur loss. Dry flaky skin. Dark pigmentation around eyes, and spotting around the back. About half a dozen very small slightly pinkish "lumps"or nodules on back, legs, and belly. She eats, drinks, and acts normal in every way - no change in behavior.

The vet speculated this might be "adrenal cancer". But he was not sure. As I said, a very noncommital fellow. But why would that effect the skin as it did? Would a change in adrenal function be shown on the skin?

I had over the past week changed her bedding, applied antibiotic ointment all over her, and on another day applied Bactine, all in the hope it was an infection of some kind. It had no effect in any way. Today I finally found some CarefreshUltra (looks like popcorn) and I will clean everything and put her on that. But she likely does have cancer. Again, surprisingly, the could not explain the skin condition as a manifestation of possible cancer. (?).

Yes, the vet is experienced (29 years) and has been recommended for "exotics" - anything other than a dog and a cat is called "exotic".

So, we hope for the best for Makeeda and will be watching developments. If she really looks worse and worse and is in apparent pain (as best I can tell) she'll be put down; as i wish I had done with her poor mom who had brain cancer.

If anyone has ever heard of this condition let me know.

[Die Fledermaus]

Let me add the vet determined she did not have mites by doing a skin scraping and examining it.

[jeannie]

This sounds very odd - I've never encountered it before either. I hope she continues to feel okay.

Who knows? Maybe's it's not cancer, and is some sort of allergy, or bizarre condition.

I'll be thinking of her.

[jeannie]

I met a cat recently who had weird bumps all over her body from an autoimmune problem - she also had bad allergies. Maybe it's something like that...

[Die Fledermaus]

There was a post on petshub.com's hamster forum in a thread I started on this issue that mentioned a hamster with similar symptoms that indeed had cancer, and the effects were not pleasant. But who knows . . . the vet sure did not. Makeeda is on CarefreshUltra.

I would have thought the vet could have told me more about a condition one might have thought he had seen at least once before.

I met today, walking down the street with an African gray parrot on his arm, which soon ended up on mine, a former worker at Petland Discounts, Dave. He was attacked by a co-worker, so the company fired them both! He had been very helpful and told me that the vet above, a Dr Appel, was not especially good. (?). He is the one where I went - the Fifth Avenue Veterinary Hospital. I used to pass by that a lot walking home from the Harbor fitness club (now, the Dolphin, which is much much closer for me). I asked and they claimed familiarity with "exotics", and was recommended by a few local people including another animal hospital. Maybe I should try that place in Park Slope next time. . .

The people in the office before me had brought in a cat to be put down - "it's time". While I was waiting I heard a "meow". Pretty sad stuff.

[Die Fledermaus]

Jeannie said:

I met a cat recently who had weird bumps all over her body from an autoimmune problem - she also had bad allergies. Maybe it's something like that...

The concern were what appeared to be those very small bumps or nodules under the skin and the scaliness of the skin above it. The post on that other forum made it seem similar to a cancerous condition her hamster had. I don't know. And all the vet could do was speculate it was cancer, something he would not verify without a costly biopsy; he did not even suggest it may have been something else.

Should I have expected a little more information from a vet or what?? How could someone with 29 (or 26) years experience look at this condition as if he never saw it before??

[jeannie]

It's probably not very common. Two different exotic vets had never seen anything like Pyke's tumors before.
Can't expect too much from vets. How many doctors do you know who can always diagnose a problem by just looking at a patient without doing tests? He was at least able to rule out mites, so you knew she didn't need to get treated for that, and you would have the answer regarding whether or not it's cancer if you had a biopsy done. Without doing it, you'll know soon enough anyway if it's cancer because there will be a very quick and rapid decline within a month or two. That's what my vets have said, and that is also what I have seen.

I hope she fares well. Maybe it's not something so bad after all. Time will tell. Good luck!

[Die Fledermaus]

She is very active and normal in behavior. She is just almost bald now.

I obviously was not paying a hundred dollars for a biopsy on the chance it might be cancer - which would be pretty much untreatable based on everything I ever read about hamsters. Even those with operable tumors had them "recur quickly".

One time my mother was working in an office where the copying fluid made her arms swell up and look burned! A bad allergy, and she needed to soak in that purple potassium permanganate!

That post in petshub.com on this matter made a point that their hamster's behavior did not change; she just got worse on the outside. Have you ever heard of a hamster being in pain but showing no change at all in behavior? (Or is that impossible to tell?).

Makeeda is on CarefreshUltra - funny bright look in there.

Still no photos. See the post I will put in Members Only in several minutes on that.

[Kain]

Tom, ask your vet about Cushings Disease. It's a disease that infects the skin, sometimes causing the symptoms you described.

The disease is usually associated with dogs, but I had a hamster with the illness a few years ago.

Kane

[Die Fledermaus]

Cushings Disease? Can that occur in hamsters?

I will do a web search. I will call him but I doubt if he will know of it; as I wrote, he did not seem like a bundle of hamster knowledge.

Encyclopedia of Canine Veterinary Medical Information:

>> If it can be determined that there is an adrenal gland tumor, it can be removed. Many veterinarians prefer to have a specialist attempt this since the surgical risks can be high. Pituitary gland tumors are not usually removed in veterinary medicine. This situation is treated using Lysodren (o'p'-DDD, which is a relative of DDT) or ketaconazole. Some research with Deprenyl for treatment of this is being done, too, I think. Lysodren selectively kills the outer layer of the adrenal gland that produces corticosteroids. By administering it in proper amounts it is possible to kill just enough of the gland off to keep the production of corticosteroids to normal levels. Obviously, close regulation of this using blood testing is necessary since overdoing it can cause severe problems with Addison's disease - hypoadrenocorticism. Adverse reactions to Lysodren occur at times but it is the standard treatment at this time. Over medication with Lysodren can cause inappetence, vomiting, diarrhea, lethargy and weakness. If any of these signs occur then your veterinarian should be immediately notified.If it can be determined that there is an adrenal gland tumor, it can be removed. Many veterinarians prefer to have a specialist attempt this since the surgical risks can be high. Pituitary gland tumors are not usually removed in veterinary medicine. This situation is treated using Lysodren (o'p'-DDD, which is a relative of DDT) or ketaconazole. Some research with Deprenyl for treatment of this is being done, too, I think. Lysodren selectively kills the outer layer of the adrenal gland that produces corticosteroids. By administering it in proper amounts it is possible to kill just enough of the gland off to keep the production of corticosteroids to normal levels. Obviously, close regulation of this using blood testing is necessary since overdoing it can cause severe problems with Addison's disease - hypoadrenocorticism. Adverse reactions to Lysodren occur at times but it is the standard treatment at this time. Over medication with Lysodren can cause inappetence, vomiting, diarrhea, lethargy and weakness. If any of these signs occur then your veterinarian should be immediately notified. <<

Dogs can live two years with it, >> The average lifespan of dogs diagnosed with Cushing's, with or without treatment is estimated at 2 years. . . At present, though, I think that treatment should be viewed as a means of providing a better quality lifestyle rather than as a method of extending longevity. <<.

If you recall, John F. Kennedy had Addison's Disease. But kept it secret.

More on this when I have time. . .

[Die Fledermaus]

One vet I saw was non-commital, and not very helpful at all. He recommended biopsies to determine if cancer; he would not even discuss treatment options (or their costs) until this expensive procedure was done.

I called and spoke to Dr Sallas (see Gerbil forum thread on vets) and she was very informed and helpful, even though I had paid her nothing. The consensus is that it MAY be Cushings (resulting from a pituitary tumor), but she should have been possibly drinking more if it was (she does not seem to be). Other options included cysts on the ovaries. She said that medication (Lysodren) was rarely used to treat hamsters and results were very mixed; plus, monitoring the drug was actually dangerous for the hamster owing to where the blood has to be removed for the test and the tiny size of the vessels.

Obviously, all this would be costly, too. But she was certain that efficacy was very "iffy" at best, and even potentially dangerous. It was also only a palliative for the symptoms; there is no cure.

Dr Sallas said I should get the first vet to prescribe an inexpensive oral antibiotic for the skin - "sulfatrim" (sp?). Skin problems are occuring, and she advised me to avoid topic antibiotic ointments.

So, I call the first vet tomorrow. I will not be happy if he refuses to prescribe this stuff. . .

[jeannie]

Oh, that's great. Sallas is one of Calvinator's vets - I remember she recommended her. I'm glad she was so helpful.

My vet has used sulfatrim with most of my rodent infections, and it has been pretty effective. I like it much better than baytril.

[Die Fledermaus]

What's the typical dosage and cost? And is it to be used indefinitely (and is that a good thing)?

Cal apparently never told Sallas where she works or what she does as I mentioned her and S&C and Sallas drew a blank.

I went to the other guy today but he was in surgery working on a cat's bladder. I have a feeling he is going to bust my chops somehow when I call Saturday. I just have that feeling about him.

The difference in attitude and information between the two vets was amazing. Maybe the guy is fully competent and a fine surgeon, but he could work on his manner and interaction with people. Sallas also told me what he suggested, biopsies, were not the best course of action even if I did plan on treating this condition, which Sallas recommended against, as I said.

So, we do what we can. . .

BTW, very sad news. I found Tommy dead. He was buried deep, intact, in the bedding of the 20 gallon tank. The Gang of Four is now the Gang of Three . At least until I rescue a young male and do an intro (none are avaiable right now.)

Tommy (and Sam) were my favorites - curious, confident, smart, friendly, and he loved to climb all over me and look around. He was here for almost 25 months, and lived 26; I got him and his brothers, Dill and Phil, uncle Cliffy, and aunts Chrissie and Crystal, in July of 2002.

More in Memorial Forum, as time permits. My latest PC problems killed my schedule as it wasted many hours of my time.

[Die Fledermaus]

Die said:

. . .So, I call the first vet tomorrow. I will not be happy if he refuses to prescribe this stuff. . .

Guess what? I'm not surprised. He refused to prescribe the stuff, not without diagnosing the causes by way of a $95 biopsy - a biopsy Sallas told me was NOT warranted, and even if it did indicate cancer the treatment is not efficacious and possibly dangerous. This jerk, Appel, Fifth Ave Vet. Hospital here in Brooklyn, NY, clearly was not knowledgeable and intent on doing nothing without more and more tests. This is the guy who refused to tell me how much treatment for cancer might cost if it was so diagnosed (with the $95 biopsy). In otherwords, do the biopsy and THEN I tell you the cost; I should know the cost beforehand in case it is prohibitive.

When I asked about the lesions on the skin and what I should do with them and whether I should use antibiotic oinment (which Sallas was against) instead of the Sulfatrim, he said "maybe I'm not the vet for you". The response of a fraud claiming to be a hamster vet.

Anyway, I doubt if this is serious enough to compain to the NYS Office of Professional Discipline, but I will complain to someone, and make my feelings known where appropriate in the neighborhood. If anyone has any ideas about a good place to compan other than the OPD let me know.

I KNEW this guy was an a-hole from the first time he walked in the exam. room.

One thing is sure - CALL FIRST. If you get no call back or you don't like the attitude or lack of knowledge, go elsewhere. I should have called Sallas first, before seeing this other guy who was within walking distance unike Sallas.

[Die Fledermaus]

I related recently the illness Makeeda had in THIS THREAD. Click on it and read it, please, if you haven't.

I promised photos of Makeeda. My computer was having problems so I could not get the images up earlier, but here they are.

They are not pleasant to look at. So be warned. This was almost surely Cushings Disease.

Makeeda is at peace now, and the issues I had with the vet I will post in a separate thread later.

If you wish to see these photos open the links; I will not post the images in case it would be upsetting. If she was in pain, I could not tell.

FIRST

SECOND

THIRD