integration issues?

[doctorbob]

Our newest girl that is a result of a rescue operation seems to like living here. We like her, too. So maybe we'll keep her. She's been through quarantine with flying colors and seems to be fine.

We wanted to introduce her to the other 2 girls. But first, let's go ahead and get this out of the way: the original and oldest girl is named Dizzy. The rescued rat is called Millie and she's about 9 or 10 months old. Our other girl is called Silver (like Hi-ho Silver! Away!) and is maybe 7 or 8 months old.

All of these rats are healthy, love playing, and are smart enough (and ADD-free enough) to learn tricks or tasks or whatever.

My issue is that when I put Millie (the new girl) in the huge cage with the original other 2 girls, they gang up on her and force her to the floor. It looks to me like she's just rolling over and submitting to their assertion that they are in charge. This is what some social animals do; I understand. But my question is, is this what rats do? If so, I can accept that but I'd hoped they'd let it go once Millie had shown submissive behavior. But they don't. How long should this go on? They constantly harass her and it's not cool to see. Can't tell if it's "violent" or not. They also seem to have more than a healthy interest in sniffing places even rats get tired of being sniffed, eventually... I do not believe Millie is having her period of estrus currently; I know that can cause a great deal of sniffing -- even from girls...

So is this normal behavior? I know they're very territorial at times. We're still pretty new at this and we're grateful for any advice you'd care to offer.

Thanks,
db

[adoptaratcanada]

First off, if she's still in there, please remove her.

More to follow.

[doctorbob]

Apr 10, 2009 12:52:31 GMT -4 adoptaratcanada said:

First off, if she's still in there, please remove her.

More to follow.

Thanks; I definitely did not leave her in there. More info: they did fine on the "playground" and that's why I mentioned territorialism. Maybe it is the the fact that she's in the house. Maybe it would help to divide the cage with a spot just Millie; I don't know. It's just that when she was abandoned, she was in one of those tiny plastic mouse 'habitat' things. We moved her to a slightly larger area but it is clear she wants to be with the other two.

More later from me too.

[adoptaratcanada]

First I wanted to say good on ya for taking in the new girl, and also, for being a very attentive and concerned rat parent!



Sometimes putting a new rat straight into a cage will work, but not often, and it's not advised.

Since the current rats have already met the new one, and since you've done the quarantine, you may or may not want to skip this step: initially house the rats near each other so they can smell (and even see) each other. You can also put some fabric like fleece in each cage and after a few days, swap the fabric into the other cage so they can smell it up close.

Rats are territorial, as you point out. The introductions should take place on neutral territory. A commonly used area is a bathtub, as they can also be contained, and if there is any trouble, you can separate them using a thick or double-over towel.

In the tub they should have food (in different areas so they aren't competing), maybe some toys and some people even put a little (safely warm) water in by the drain (WHICH SHOULD BE PLUGGED!) if the rats like that sort of thing.

I've never heard of a rat flipping out and attacking the new rat in these conditions, not to say it couldn't happen. Depending on how well it goes, some people do this over a few days, up to a week (or as long as it takes). Start small - aim to have them in there together for only a few minutes at the beginning and add more time as you go. Don't leave them unsupervised.

To assert dominance, a rat might flip the other, there might be "boxing" stances. As long as there is no blood or really horrible terror on the part of the flipped rat, you should allow them to sort it out.

Once the are getting along, before they all go into the same cage, it should be thoroughly cleaned and washed, and things moved around (at least temporarily) inside the cage to make it look and smell less familiar, to help the old rats feel less territorial. YInitially you might want to add an extra bed or nest, and food disch so they don't have to compete for the same ones.

It looks like it will work out alright for you, as the new rat wasn't killed or injured when put in the existing rats' cage.

I will interested to know that thoughts on others here...since you've bypassed the steps without serious injuries, whether should you go back through all the steps (*I* would be inclined to).

I was curious how long they've been in the same cage thus far.

Links:
ratguide.com/care/behavior/introducing_rats.php

www.rmca.org/Resources/mousefaq.htm (this one references mice, but it applies to rats, too)

wererat.net/rathelp/introductions.htm

Slightly unrelated:
ratfanclub.org/single.html


Good luck and we look forward to pictures!

[doctorbob]

Thanks for the replies. Millie has been housed within maybe 5 feet of the big cage and they have had play time. They did get along on the "playground" (a large enclosed play area; Dizzy hates the bathtub). And you're right on about taking her out as soon as it looks to get out of hand. I never left them unsupervised when I was trying to get them acquainted in the cage. Because they were OK in the play area, it was a shock to see this other behavior in the cage. Maybe it would be OK to tell then entire history; maybe that can shed light on the behavior a little.

We got our first rat last summer. She was a rescue. But this was just Dizzy. She may be going on 2 years old by now. She came to us in a 20 gallon aquarium and that was definitely too small. I bought her a big cage, or habitat if you prefer. But the literature also said to try and not keep a rat by itself. They would benefit from having a companion. Having no breeder or actual rat rescue within several hundred miles, my son got a baby at the big pet chain within a few weeks of Dizzy coming to live here. (OK, the "baby" was maybe 6 weeks old but compared to Dizzy, she was a baby.) My son named her Oreo, due to her coloration. After quarantine and introduction (that's how we found out Dizzy hates the bathtub), Oreo moved in. They got along great and only had occasional squirmishes once in a while. Dizzy was probably lonely. She probably wasn't handled much before she came to live with us and maybe never had a roommate, unfortunately. So she welcomed a companion.

Unfortunately in February, Oreo became sick very quickly and died at the age of about 8 months. My guess is it was a Streptococcus spp. infection but that could have been a complication of an unknown, unseen, and undiagnosed mycoplasmosis. But I couldn't get any vet around here to do a test before she died nor an autopsy afterward. We wanted to be sure Dizzy wasn't going to be sick, too. My son was devastated. We were too because of how suddenly she went.

So we waited and waited and waited. Dizzy was and is still healthy as an ox. No respiratory issues that our only rat vet can tell. After a couple months when it was clear that Dizzy was lonely, we again went to the pet chain to get a new baby. My son named this one Silver. She has a perfect exclamation point on her back. But I don't know how to spell that so he calls her Silver. She was young and Dizzy immediately accepted her after the quarantine and after the vet pronounced her fit.

Fast forward to a couple weeks ago when we got the call that somebody had an abandoned rat. That's how we got Millie. Her story is in another thread. She's a wonderful girl. Maybe 9 or 10 months old. She was at least healthy when we got her. Vet gave her the OK. Then we decided to keep her.

So that's the story. The first post lists some of the things that concern me as does subsequent posts from me.

I like the idea of scrubbing the cage and then trying to introduce them after moving around some of their "furniture". I don't know what I'll do if we can never get them to accept her. I couldn't imagine keeping her isolated by herself. But we'll try some different things and see what happens.

I just fed their dinners so after a quick nap and digestion (for them not me), they'll want to come out to the playground and goof off for a while.

Thanks for reading,
db

If you read this entire thing, I appreciate it. I hope you were able to keep the rats straight with no pictures. Maybe I'll do that this weekend.

[adoptaratcanada]

It sound like you're off to a good start! They didn't maul her, even with her on their territory, so that is very promising. I think a few more trials on neutral territory, and finally the real-deal in the fresh and re-arranged cage will likely do the trick!

Someone I know put a new rat in with the existing (sweet, gentle) rat, a fight ensued that involved the newbie getting an eyeball being popped out!! It was restored, but I don't believe they were ever put back together.

[doctorbob]

Boy, that really did the trick. With a sparkling clean cage and some new and washed accessories, the integration is working very nicely.

Millie (the new girl) has already bonded with Dizzy (the oldest) after a lengthy grooming session. The only thing is, Millie doesn't seem to enjoy the turbo grooming style that Silver (actually, the youngest but in the middle as for how long she's lived here) always does. But then again, everything Silver does is in fast-forward.

Hmm. Now I need to get some photos finally. Thanks for the advice!
db

[Die Fledermaus]

How did I miss this thread yesterday?? Busy day, as I posted.

>> integration issues? <<

I just thought of SNCC, Stokely Carmichael, and H. Rap Brown.

>> newbie getting an eyeball being popped out! <<

Now I thought of Joe Pesci in "Casino"!

Glad the rat is OK. I once saw a video of a pug dog with a popped one. While at the vet getting gas anesthesia in a tight chamber he started banging his head - and popped it back in!

Linda is our rat mavin so nothing much I can add now, except to say I just moved my three girls from a too small cage with no levels to one with three levels that is much bigger. They went in the small one as youngsters. I moved their hideaways at the same time. I will later get a mat to make a floor for them, and a bra to serve as a hammock. That's right!

Kahini started exploring immediately; she is feisty and inquisitive. The others are less so. her brother, Rangi, is just like her with the guys, he even takes on Max who is a giant almost three times his size.

About intros. when I did that with some adult females months ago, and posted about it here, I put them all in a dry bathtub. They immediately huddled together in a corner and never showed the slightest distress or aggression.

[doctorbob]

Update:
So the girls all love the new arrangement. Dizzy and Silver are still asserting themselves on Millie but she's only submitting to a small degree; then she "fights" back. And they leave her alone. So that's great progress.

They thoroughly checked everything out and then Dizzy & Silver had a nap. I'm a little concerned that Millie never did settle down for a rest. She just sat there, waiting for somebody to walk by, so she could plaster herself against the door and beg to be let out. Because I don't want her associating that with getting what she wants, I'm having everybody resist the urge to take her our every time. But she would do this every time. Makes me wonder if she has some kind of anxious thing. Maybe I'm just worrying about her too much. After they had dinner served, Dizzy and Millie got piled up in the bed for a nap and that was awesome to see. She's furthered her bond with Dizzy.

Anyway, I can't believe I'm this concerned about a rat's behavior and psyche. But it seems to me that Millie has made herself my buddy. The rats we've had so far have never really sat still when out and with us. Millie is a bit of a lap-rat, though, and that's kind of cool.

They're doing great and I look forward to posting updates about these girls.

thanks,
db

[Die Fledermaus]

Some are like that. The aforementioned Kahini very much is like that for me.

If you look way down on my Memorial Gallery in my signature you will see "Sam the Great". Read his story. He was more like a dog or a friendly cat; he would jump right out of the tank on me, play on me and climb all over me with total confidence. Only one other gerbil was somewhat like that, Tommy, I miss them a lot, but most of all Sam.

Glad things are working out.

[adoptaratcanada]

Apr 11, 2009 14:24:31 GMT -4 doctorbob said:

Boy, that really did the trick. With a sparkling clean cage and some new and washed accessories, the integration is working very nicely.

Yaaaaay!!!! We need a cheering smiley!!

[adoptaratcanada]

Apr 11, 2009 22:50:40 GMT -4 doctorbob said:

She just sat there, waiting for somebody to walk by, so she could plaster herself against the door and beg to be let out. Because I don't want her associating that with getting what she wants, I'm having everybody resist the urge to take her our every time. But she would do this every time. Makes me wonder if she has some kind of anxious thing.



Probably not. I call it, "I'm working my rattie mind control on you!!" The are remarkably adept in this department

I know it well. It works on me often ;D They love to do it when I'm heading out to work and I'm overcome with the feeling that I really cannot leave the house.

Apr 11, 2009 22:50:40 GMT -4 doctorbob said:

Anyway, I can't believe I'm this concerned about a rat's behavior and psyche.

I think it's great! I think it's our "job" as pet parents to know what makes them tick. We can contribute so much to our pets when we're really in tune with them. I'm not a hypochondriac, but I'm no stranger to the vet...I can tell when something is "a bit off". I think we can make their lives so much better, and as pet parents of (especially) the likes of rats, we seem to really know alot more than the vets do...in particular in the field of behavior and personality.

Apr 11, 2009 22:50:40 GMT -4 doctorbob said:

They're doing great and I look forward to posting updates about these girls.

And we look forward to reading them!

[doctorbob]

Apr 12, 2009 20:33:22 GMT -4 adoptaratcanada said:

as pet parents of (especially) the likes of rats, we seem to really know alot more than the vets do...in particular in the field of behavior and personality.

This is so true. I've mentioned briefly about Oreo. She's the one that got sick and two days later had passed on. We took her to the vet and as I also mentioned, he didn't want to do any tests or take a blood sample or anything. According to him, it would have been too expensive, too hard, and would have been stressful on the rat. Well, I informed the vet that I didn't have issues with money (I was really rude and insulting to his income level but I was a little tired of him not understanding that I wanted to save Oreo, not save money). I said I knew how to draw blood from a rat (don't ask) and I knew what kinds of tests we could do. I don't think drawing a blood sample would have been any more stressful on Oreo than, say, dying... Anyway...

Millie update:
So I had this rat hammock that the older girls never really liked. As I noticed Millie really beginning to relax and enjoy being with other rats, I wanted to try that hammock out on her. She loves it! It's really nice to see her so relaxed that she can enjoy something like that.

[adoptaratcanada]

It's wonderful she's settling in so well!

I understand your frustration with the vet. I tried to be diplomatic in that earlier post and say we know more about their behaviour etc, but quite honestly, alot of us know alot more about standard rat treatments than most vets. I might not be up to a surgery, but, you know...

The irony is, everything gets TESTED on the dang rats! Vets LEARN on the dang rats. Why don't they actually KNOW about them?

[Die Fledermaus]

I definitely know more about rodents than most vets. One I reported to NYS for knowing nothing and just wanting tests and tests. Tey busted his chops. The ham, Makeeda, had Cushing's Disease, which I learned on this board, later confirmed by another vet for free. Another vet on a different ham (Princess years earlier) was caring and I got the Baytril I wanted, but she could not sex an adult hamster despite claiming earlier to know hams. "Are you sure that is a female?". anyway, the ham survived. I may have just given her too much lettuce but she still got a subcutaneous shot to rehydrate.

I would not be too hard on the vet over the money issue. Costs ARE an issue for most of us especially in this economy, and any vet who would just run up costs and then tell us would have some angry customers. Glad they are not an issue for you.