Earl Grey/discoloured urine update

[adoptaratcanada]

Earl Grey was at the vet today to look into the discoloured urine. The vet gave him a very deep exam and said he couldn't feel any crystals or lumps, and EG had already peed himself dry. He gave me a dipstick to test his urine for blood.

He also mentioned something about porphyrin in urine, which I never head of, and got distracted in the conversation and didn't follow that up. I just did a search (rat porphyrin urine) on google which brought up lots of results of porphyrin in rat and human urine (didn't know it was in humans, too). Some are just footnote references, and some I'm just to tired to try and translate to laymen's terms, so I'm just not getting it

Ok, I just added the word "pet" to my search and this site came up:
en.allexperts.com/q/Pet-Rats-3537/2008/3/blood-urine.htm which doesn't answer my question, but makes me think porphyrin in the urine is not out of the question.

Anyone familiar with this?

Thanks!

[Die Fledermaus]

I was surprised to hear of porphyrin in cat tear ducts! One has a leaky eye and it often is oddly dark, and dried nearly black.

Never heard of it in rodent urine. But I knew those wooden blocks were not doing it. If we drank a bottle of food dye I doubt if it would color the urine. Hmmm. . . now there is an experiment to try!

From your link:

>> Color is bright red, not brownish red. <<

Yours was not bright, right?

>> Hematuria is a sign of red blood cells in the urine. The first vet was thinking the discoloration in the urine was from porphyrin due to stress from who knows what since your not sure if she was sick or not. Stress from loss of her cagemate could even contribute to porphyrin discharge which is not only found in the mucus membranes of the nose but in the eyes as well since the gland that produces porphyrin is located behind the eyes. It can be excreted through the kidneys which is why it may be seen in the urine but porphyrin is not blood of course and if the urine culture showed red blood cells, did it also show bacteria and if so, what kind? Sorry for all the stuff I am asking, I just want to make sure I am accurate with my advice. I wanted to ask also if bladder stones were ruled out?

Anyhow, if she isnt drinking its important she gets fluid with your help. You can offer her mashed watermelon and she may love it so much you can put the watermelon juice in the syringe and let her suck it that way too. Is she eating? <<

Good advice.

OK, I will post it on the rmca board. . . now.

[adoptaratcanada]

Jun 10, 2009 20:55:28 GMT -4 Die Fledermaus said:

From your link:

>> Color is bright red, not brownish red. <<

Yours was not bright, right?

right

[Die Fledermaus]

That is the info I posted as to color. I await comments.

Read this:
en.allexperts.com/q/Pet-Rats-3537/2008/7/Urine-question-1.htm

Almost the same link as yours but different.

If yours was a female rat there would be more obvious possibilities for the discoloration (uterine).

[Die Fledermaus]

>> I have seen blood in the urine mentioned once or twice before around the different forums I'm on; antibiotics were always suggested. If rattie has already been on antibiotics, then I am guessing they either need a stronger/different antibiotic, it could be maybe an infection which maybe requires surgery to help remove (like pyometra), or maybe there is a tumor somewhere near the kidneys or something??? (just throwing out some stuff... I haven't ever had any of these things happen to me before so I am kind of just parroting... if somebody else a little more knowledgeable could jump in...) Regardless, I hope the little furry turns out to be okay!! <<

>> You need to figure out if the urine itself is dark, or if it has blood in it. (Not porphyrin: that's respiratory.) Dark means dehydration or kidney trouble; blood can be a variety of things. Either way a vet visit is in order; even simple dehydration can be life-threatening if it progresses too far. <<

Responses I received.

Keep me posted.

[adoptaratcanada]

Thanks for that input. I did the test strip and it showed NO blood, and again, the vet didn't feel any crystals in the bladder or lumps.

Somewhere I read that baytril can cause crystals in the urine, but I would have assumed that that was with prolonged use.

Now Earl Grey is off the baytril, and I remove the coloured chew toys on the weekend, I think it was. The vet suggested keeping him separated from his brothers to check the urine, and to see how often he's urinating.

For what it's worth, the pee over the last day or two is almost normal.

Hopefully that's the end of it.

[Die Fledermaus]

So you are assuming crystals caused by Baytril??

[Die Fledermaus]

More feedback:

>> If Earl Grey is hydrated (do a pinch test of the skin between his shoulders, pull it up a little, and it should go back to normal immediately), then I would have your friend take him in for a possible urinary track infection. If the vet is lucky, Earl will leave a nice sample on the table. If it is a UTI, the antibiotic that is considered good for them is sulfamethoxazole/ trimethoprim, brand name, Bactrim. It is best given in syrup, or at least that's what Mix thinks If he's not hydrated well, have your friend syringe feed extra water or pedialyte/watered down gatorade. The pedialyte is more prefered, and you can make ice cubes out of what you don't use, and put them in a zip lock bag, or get the bags that you put the water in to make the ice cubes (these work well, they don't spill and don't have to be on a level surface to work). If the urine is still dark the next day, take him in. In the meantime, have your friend put him on something white in the cage, not litter, but like a white or near white baby blanket or fleece for a liner. Change the liner daily while he's on meds to monitor the urine color. If it's still the same color after the meds are done, take him back in, and request an x-ray to rule out kidney stones, or bladder tumor. Hopefully antibiotics will be all that is needed.

Hope this helps. <<

[adoptaratcanada]

Jun 11, 2009 18:04:51 GMT -4 Die Fledermaus said:

So you are assuming crystals caused by Baytril??

Not really. The vet said he didn't feel crystals (and on a few websites i read they suggested you'd see crystals in the urine, which I haven't, and he's peeing without difficulty), but if it *doesn't* go away entirely, crystals are a possibility and therefore a *chance* the baytril caused it...but I don't think so, since he wasn't on it long.

Of course, I'm only *assuming* they have to be on it long. It's prescribed routinely, so I can't see it being so popular if it can cause problems that quickly. All the things I read about a baytril/crystals connection didn't mention if it was from long term use. I know some rats have to be on antibiotics their entire lives, if prone to respiratory outbreaks.


PS: I forgot...from what I've read/understood about crystals, it's the crystals that irritate the inside of the bladder, and cause bleeding. Since there's no blood, maybe there's no crystals.

Bottom line..I have no idea ;D

[Die Fledermaus]

Well, I will pass along any more comments I receive. As often happens, WHO KNOWS?!