need advice - sick rat?

[doctorbob]

I need advice pronto. First let me say that I tried to speak to my vet today. She's out of town. The fill-in vet doesn't know much about rats; that's what she told me. Because there are no other symptoms, she tried to steer me toward an environmental irritant or allergen. I'll work on that, of course... But knowing what I do on how rat respiratory diseases work, I'm worried sick. Millie has developed the dreaded sneeze. The reason I'm so wigged out about that is because that was the only symptom before Oreo got really sick and suddenly died within only a couple days.

Realistically, what should I do? What should I look for? The only symptom is that she sneezes occasionally. There is no red tinge to the sneeze droplets, she is not wheezing or breathing hard, and she has not lost any appetite for food or water. Her activity level is normal (now that she's recovered from a very playful weekend free-ranging).

I've read where some people give their rats antibiotics for a week or so when the sneeze comes on. Some give antibiotics all the time. I have some Baytril and some Doxycycline droplets but not enough for an effective course. Some suggest using the water-soluble Doxy... Should I be doing that? Can somebody PM me a source? Is it legal to ask since I'm not a vet? ratballs.com suggests jedds.com as a source but that's for birds. Will the Doxy available there work OK? Should I ask my vet for antibiotics? The fill-in vet said (embarrassingly) that I seemed to know more about this than her. (That's pretty sad.)

The fill-in vet today didn't seem too concerned that I bring Millie in. The reason this bothers me is because Oreo's vet didn't seem too worried at that time. She didn't live 24 hours after the visit I finally arranged. That was not where we go now. Should I find yet another vet???

Benjamin is out of town visiting my dad this week and I don't want to have to tell him we've lost a third rattie girl this year. That would suck.

Thanks for any advice or discussion.
bob

[Die Fledermaus]

Asking around. . . researching. . .

I would suggest the vet in Brooklyn, at Vinegar Hill Vet, Dr Newman, but I doubt if she will be returning long distance calls to you, unless collect!

Have you tried OTC antibioitics such as orncycline available at pet stores? That before you get something stronger, if needed.

Back later. . .

[doctorbob]

Had no idea you could run down to Petsmart and get a bird antibiotic. Now I've got it. How do I dose for that one? Like for a "small bird"? That's one packet per 8 oz water.

edited to add: That's 250mg tetracycline in 8oz water...

Thanks for the tip.
bob

[Die Fledermaus]

One packet in 8 oz is what I did. Tetracycline is the other name for the same stuff. It used to come in impossible to dissolve tablets, but powdered packets are now common. It is not strong, but better than nothing in a pinch when something is needed. be sure they drink, but never force liquids down their throat!!

No responses where I posted. No one posts in the evening there.

[doctorbob]

Thanks for sticking with me. I had the girls out just now for morning play (it's funny they're even up at 5AM but maybe because it's stormy here) and everything seems normal. No sneezes. Even so, I've set up the antibiotic in her water bottle. I'll report how it goes.

bob

[Die Fledermaus]

>> The fill-in vet said (embarrassingly) that I seemed to know more about this than her. (That's pretty sad.) <<

Typical from my experience.

No responses yet on the rat and mouse club forum to that question. Maybe this afternoon.

[Die Fledermaus]

How is it going?

A reply:

>> Quick comments:

Do not give medication in water. Dosing is unreliable and, in the worst case, may result in dehydrated rats refusing to drink and therefore getting even sicker.

Do not give antibiotics to rats (or anyone else!) when they are not showing symptoms. Exception: When there is a real possibility of viral disease (rare but deadly).

In general, I don't assume a systemic illness if sneezing is the only symptom. But if the rat seems to be following a pattern, then you're right to worry. How long ago was Oreo ill? Did Oreo and Millie know each other? How about the other rats in the colony? <<

[doctorbob]

Jul 21, 2009 19:37:42 GMT -4 Die Fledermaus said:

How is it going?
In general, I don't assume a systemic illness if sneezing is the only symptom. But if the rat seems to be following a pattern, then you're right to worry. How long ago was Oreo ill? Did Oreo and Millie know each other? How about the other rats in the colony? <<

Thanks for providing that. My response is - no, Millie did not know Oreo and in my mind, there was no chance of contamination. EVERYthing was disinfected before we got Silver, a few weeks after Oreo died. We did the usual quarantine.

Now - just between you and me:
Don't just give antibiotics unless I strongly suspect a viral infection? Please - an antibiotic isn't going to do a thing to a virus, I promise.

Further conjecture:
Have you ever heard whether a rat can be a host for something and not show symptoms? Is it possible Dizzy was a non-infected host? Or in other words, she could have been a sink for this bacteria. Then every other rat in the colony has/had it. That would suck.

They're sleeping very much today. But as I said, they were awake at 5AM (very uncharacteristic) and playing; I'm guessing due to the storms. I had an insurance adjuster here today and Silver got extremely agitated and active. She wasn't sick but gave me a scare because she was sounding like she was wheezing. Once Eduardo left, she was fine. Weird.

I didn't think the girls were avoiding drinking due to the drug being in the water. If that's not recommended, what else should I do? I'll offer plain water and see what happens. If a rat is thirsty, she will come to it.

Finally, the only symptom is still the sneezing. Everything else seems normal.

[Die Fledermaus]

>> Don't just give antibiotics unless I strongly suspect a viral infection? <<

Yea, I missed that!

Latest reply. I gave her the link to this thread in hopes she joins so I can avoid all this. it is getting goofy.

>> I'd get a second opinion, ASAP, and I'll tell you why. OTC tetracycline, like Lucy says, is unreliable. Furthermore, since the whole time some time ago where trying it was an option, tetracycline has lost some of its effectiveness on various forms of organisms. The weakness of a water-derivative tetracycline could just wind up giving you a nasty bunch of resistant organisms.

But the major reason I'd hop to a second opinion is you have a situation where another rat in the colony got sick with a similar symptom and then died quickly. It could be nothing. But if it isn't anything, then getting a second opinion won't hurt; if it turned out to be something, you'd want your rat at a vet without delay.

In my humble opinion, when someone asks you a question like this, it's because some part of them is really asking for support for a decision their instincts have already made. Their mommy radar is saying, "Go to the vet!", but they're afraid they'll look stupid if they take a rat in for nothing. They don't call us "mommy" and "daddy" for nothing. We are our pet's only advocates, they have no voice.

Also, if a vet tells me, "Don't bother to bring them in; that's nothing." then I'm going to say, "Oh, I didn't know you could see nothing's wrong from that far away. I'll take my rat to a vet who's going to take them into the office and see if maybe there's some vital symptom I couldn't see, because I'm not a vet!" At the very least, they could get them in there, and see nothing's wrong, and get you something to alleviate the sneezing for the rattie's comfort.

I'd say, vet. Now. Just my opinion. If it isn't life and death, it's worth a vet visit to find that out. Good luck to your friend. Please keep us updated! <<

[Die Fledermaus]

Latest. . .

>> Antibiotics can't do anything for the viral infection itself, but what they can do is whup the opportunistic bacterial infections that attack the rat when it is already immunocompromsied. As with many common viral diseases in humans, rats are far less likely to die from the virus itself than from a secondary infection: for example, measles or a non-lethal flu (viral) followed by pneumonia (bacterial).

That's why you give antibiotics to the entire colony, not only the symptomatic ones, when you have reason to suspect a viral infection. By the time they start showing symptoms, it is too late; their immune systems can't keep them going until the medication kicks in. <<